#1161
the opposition between them is illusory
#1162

chickeon posted:

the opposition between them is illusory

#1163

vimingok posted:

Liberalism provides the material basis for fascism (during capitalist crises) but the latter is historically a revolution against liberalism right? Or at least trying to subsume it under a non- or anti- liberal fascist order?

Adolf Hitler didn't invent social darwinism, or white supremacy, or eugenics, or concentration camps, or the idea that human excellence was measured in wealth accumulation.

#1164

vimingok posted:

My half-baked theory is that much of what is called fascism today is a decadent kind of liberalism and not larval fascism.

clipuuuuuuu

you could think of fascism as something that emerges from within liberalism as an attempt to resolve an impasse that it finds itself in when faced with the rapid pace of capitalist development, its tendency towards crisis... basically you can't pick and choose this shit like a video game where it just appears in a cloud of vapor suddenly on its own, divorced from material conditions.

also on ICE guards as the material manifestation of present-day fascism:

#1165
i guess we could talk about the idea that the latest coronavirus was created in the U.S. and unleashed on China as economic warfare, but here’s an alternative for the epic win: Foreign Policy floating the idea of suspending election campaigns this year and having people vote by pushing their ballots through the gaps between the boards over their windows.
#1166
Voting is now done by using the same app that was used in Iowa
#1167
@trackfractri, thanks for responding and the links. I only read that Sakai essay and mostly agree with it. The Woodley book sounds too academic for me.

I think my definition of fascism seems pretty close to Sakai's - emerging out of defunct liberalism, attempting to enact revolutionary changes in them, subordinating everyone else under the PB which now comprises a romanticised new bourgeoisie+warrior caste. But if we accept that definition Trump and his fans still represent liberalism, albeit a version in the final stage/s of decline. You might say fascism is those final stages and maybe that is a more useful way of looking at it, but I'm not convinced.

Domenico Losurdo makes an extensive case that liberalism by its very nature relies on the demarcation of sacred vs profane spaces, hence as genocidal and oppressive if not more than fascism, in practice. But he also says that precisely because of that reliance liberals also need to adjust those spaces to changing conditions, and maintain a certain balance between them. So bearing that in mind Trump et al seem to represent a contraction of the liberal sacred spaces, ie make them more white supremacist like in the 60s or whatever. The overall effect is of delaying crisis not reacting to it (obviously, since it hasn't happened yet for white PB).

Again the question I'm thinking about is what fascism will look like if/when it does happen. Predicting an extreme version of current liberalism isn't very helpful because liberalism taken to extremes is a fantasy akin to neoreaction and the like, because current liberal ideology is itself a mix of fantastic and pragmatic excuses for stable bourgeois rule. Sorry if all this sounds hackneyed and disconnected. Many thoughts but precious little time to organise them!
#1168

vimingok posted:

Again the question I'm thinking about is what fascism will look like if/when it does happen

#1169
#1170
in all the discussions about what fascism looks like and will look like the only thing we ever managed to agree on is that it will look like tacky shit
#1171

vimingok posted:

@trackfractri, thanks for responding and the links. I only read that Sakai essay and mostly agree with it. The Woodley book sounds too academic for me.

I think my definition of fascism seems pretty close to Sakai's - emerging out of defunct liberalism, attempting to enact revolutionary changes in them, subordinating everyone else under the PB which now comprises a romanticised new bourgeoisie+warrior caste. But if we accept that definition Trump and his fans still represent liberalism, albeit a version in the final stage/s of decline. You might say fascism is those final stages and maybe that is a more useful way of looking at it, but I'm not convinced.

Domenico Losurdo makes an extensive case that liberalism by its very nature relies on the demarcation of sacred vs profane spaces, hence as genocidal and oppressive if not more than fascism, in practice. But he also says that precisely because of that reliance liberals also need to adjust those spaces to changing conditions, and maintain a certain balance between them. So bearing that in mind Trump et al seem to represent a contraction of the liberal sacred spaces, ie make them more white supremacist like in the 60s or whatever. The overall effect is of delaying crisis not reacting to it (obviously, since it hasn't happened yet for white PB).

Again the question I'm thinking about is what fascism will look like if/when it does happen. Predicting an extreme version of current liberalism isn't very helpful because liberalism taken to extremes is a fantasy akin to neoreaction and the like, because current liberal ideology is itself a mix of fantastic and pragmatic excuses for stable bourgeois rule. Sorry if all this sounds hackneyed and disconnected. Many thoughts but precious little time to organise them!

i think trump and his administration, which is essentially a continuation of the same old american liberal settler institutions with the mask off, needs to be distinguished from many of the rank and file 'alt right' types who really do want to violently overthrow liberalism. like are you gonna claim that the dude that goes and shoots up a mosque to incite a race war is a liberal? these people are quite happy to support or be members of racist institutions within liberalism, like the police or the tsa, while also wanting to install actual fascism if they had the capability to do so.

#1172
Given the readiness with which people admit that they aren't certain what fascism 'would' look like, what is the origin of the reticience toward recognizing the Amerikkkan Empire as fascist? It used to be taken for granted, before things were even this bad, and often still is discursively. Extremely powerful ideological self-concealment or disavowal seems to be the main distinguishing factor at this point. This is it, this is whhat it looks like. The disguise isn't even very good if you look long enough, it really only works for the people wearing it.
#1173

chickeon posted:

Given the readiness with which people admit that they aren't certain what fascism 'would' look like, what is the origin of the reticience toward recognizing the Amerikkkan Empire as fascist?

Fear.

#1174
I think Griffin's definition of fascism as palingenetic ultranationalism is as good a place to start as any, and it's hard to argue it in a country where the president campaigns for reelection by lecturing a bunch of people in Make _______ Great Again ballcaps about how today's dishwashers just aren't as dishwasher-y as the ones your mom and dad had, you know, and I haven't gotten around to making apple pies taste more like they used to but I sure will next time! while the so-called opposition, the preferred collaborator for the state's assassins abroad, sinks everything into a strategy that argues the other guy only won office because of nefarious racial enemies brainwashing the citizenry from remote foreign strongholds, taking advantage of supporters' genuine fears of new social and technological developments while filling party coffers with quid-pro-quo "donations" from the slice of the bourgeoisie that manages them.
#1175
No opposition will be entertained to the doctrine that people get sick because of the Red Chinese and the way to fix that is to pummel nearby countries until they accept United $nakkke$ puppets as their leaders. Protest and the state's white-supremacist paramilitary will invade your home in body armor and march you away at the wrong end of the country's prized export, its grotesquely overdesigned longarms. That's liberal democracy and we should be very careful not to confuse it with fascism, which speaks a foreign language and is the same thing as Communism.
#1176

cars posted:

I think Griffin's definition of fascism as palingenetic ultranationalism is as good a place to start as any, and it's hard to argue it in a country where the president campaigns for reelection by lecturing a bunch of people in Make _______ Great Again ballcaps about how today's dishwashers just aren't as dishwasher-y as the ones your mom and dad had, you know, and I haven't gotten around to making apple pies taste more like they used to but I sure will next time! while the so-called opposition, the preferred collaborator for the state's assassins abroad, sinks everything into a strategy that argues the other guy only won office because of nefarious racial enemies brainwashing the citizenry from remote foreign strongholds, taking advantage of supporters' genuine fears of new social and technological developments while filling party coffers with quid-pro-quo "donations" from the slice of the bourgeoisie that manages them.

Griffin is where I started. It's funny you mention that... because I agree with it but I don't know if Griffin would accept his own conclusions here, since he comes from the liberal side of academic "fascist studies" which tends to stick fascism in its own special box, distinct from liberalism. So there's a lot of explanation of how fascists see the world and what is motivating them, as they understand it, but I've just about read enough psychology at this point at the expense of, like, a better understanding of the class character of fascist rule. And it makes me wonder how useful the "palingenetic ultranationalism" thing is when applied to, say, Vichy France where loyalty to the regime implied loyalty to the Third Reich. Now the true believers might really have thought France was standing on its own two feet again under Vichy, but objectively the country was just being looted for everything that was bolted down. Or neo-fascist groups in Italy in the 1970s who subjectively might have thought their actions were about all kinds of things but were objectively acting to solidify a stable, center-right, liberal political order -- and being used for that specific purpose.

I liked what I've read of Griffin's stuff on modern terrorism where he goes into the psychology of it, which I think is very eerie. Individual terrorists / mass shooter types engage in what he calls "heroic doubling;" i.e. it's like they see themselves as like superheroes, or Neo from The Matrix. And they're so bummed out and alienated, adopting this persona transforms them into their own personal Neo, so they feel really calm and focused on their little quest -- which is really just building up to a pathetic and gruesome killing spree at some point in the future. Often the case after one of these shootings, the news will publish photos the perp took himself posing with guns and glowering at the camera. It looks ridiculous, but for them they're acting like Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver: "you talkin' to me?"

The hardcore Nazi groups seem to try to focus this psychology in their way, where it's about dressing up in tights and marching down the street with a lot of flash and pomp. Like when Batman goes flying past members of the public with his grappling hook, people turn and look: "mommy, it's Batman!" So provoking reactions is a form of power for the sadsacks who join these groups. But what is interesting to me now is questioning how that relates to the production and reproduction of identity under capitalism -- or identity as a branded, recognizable commodity.

Edited by trakfactri ()

#1177
Vichy France used proto-Europeanist ideas to justify its subordination to Germany btw, perhaps not too dissimilar to the EU. There's a movie with a bunch of Vichy propaganda called Eye of Vichy if you want to check that out
#1178
Can’t stress enough how much a whole bunch of aristos, booj & petit-booj in pre-WWII Europe loved Hitler and the Nazis.

They mostly didn’t look like what a lot people today think of, even people on “the left”, when they imagine “fascists”.

The Nazis just didn’t give a fuck about rewarding their existing diehard boosters outside of Austria & Germany where and when that might have been feasible, by which I mean not their base of support, but the sort of people who emulated the NSDAP in other countries and throughly expected to be installed in their country’s seats of power when the Nazis swarmed in.

The Nazis instead tended to set up puppet governments made up of crusty monarchists, stuffy industrialists, weak-kneed opportunists, etc., because

1) the Nazi-cargo-cult types in other countries had nationalist platforms that involved things like taking chunks out of neighboring countries to make “Greater” versions of their own, that is, they were all at odds from the very beginning with their counterparts nearby and with Berlin’s plans for managing Europe;

2) The Nazi leadership looked at their imitators in other countries and saw a lesser version of the SA, a bunch of unstable and dangerous losers who needed to be cleared out as soon as they outlived their limited usefulness.

Even in countries where the Nazis integrated these garish Nazi-oid movements into the puppet government, they were usually junior partners to other domestic elements, the Nazis removed their respective mini-Hitlers and installed more pliable types in their place, etc.

So who really acted as Hitler’s practical, powerful and lasting support during the war, outside Germany & Austria and the Germans living nearby within territory the Germans claimed? Who were the real fascist elite among the conquered?

It was all the people I mentioned all the way at the top.

They were not waving crazy new flags and howling at the top of their lungs about how Hitler was the greatest, not until the Nazis told them it was time. They were quiet supporters, “normal” Red-Scare-mongers, “respectable” antisemites, people in “liberal” governments and their constituencies, industrialists and landlords with wide-ranging influence over the lives and livelihoods of others, and all the little twerps beneath them sharing their values and acting in imitation of them.

I agree it would be real nice, very reassuring, if history would allow the dividing line a lot of people desperately want to find, where “liberal democracy” stops and “fascism” begins. We've learned that history does not afford us that convenience, in ways not even the old Bolshevik luminaries could have possibly known in the years before the war.
#1179

cars posted:

The Nazi leadership looked at their imitators in other countries and saw a lesser version of the SA, a bunch of unstable and dangerous losers who needed to be cleared out as soon as they outlived their limited usefulness.

Good posts. Yeah awhile ago I was reading about how the Nazis came into Denmark and cleaned out the local imitators and installed their own people. One young woman who was in a family of these Danish lesser-SA types got out of there bounced around Klanada and the U.\$. in the post-war years dealing heroin and promoting spooky magic sparkle Nazi / Renaissance Faire magic stuff as a white supremacist "folkmother" for convicts in the prison system, and then died.

#1180
leading online pseudo-marxist nutso theory: the virus is just like the common cold and all of this is a hoax to implant tracking mechanisms for organ theft by the wealthy
#1181
this is real ripe conspiracy theory time. I've read and thought so many in the past few days I don't even know which ones to post
#1182
i'll give them points for consistency, never pay attention to communists, always align with far-right blogs about lizard people
#1183

drwhat posted:

this is real ripe conspiracy theory time. I've read and thought so many in the past few days I don't even know which ones to post

post 'em up. conspiracy blitz, conspiracy gauntlet, conspiracy last man standing

#1184
If I may make a suggestion - we should perhaps keep this thread for actual plausible kkkonspiracy posting, and relegate the stuff we want to laugh at to the burning trash heap of a subforum named after me, an Flying horse in saudi arabia.
#1185
so going back to plausible kkkonspiracy posting, one of the "former" nazis being shopped around by the zionist-imperialist clarion project is still running a neo-nazi organization. it couldn't be!!! but it be as revealed in the relevant footnotes in the court documents

#1186
Plausible KKKonspiracy: Qanon is a psyop. The poor racist souls firmly caught within the jaws of Qanon could be very easily mobilized into a nationwide Fascist militia. I'm sure a large majority of them are already armed, all it takes is a single Q post. And everyone here knows the feds wouldn't do a damn thing to stop them either, even if it developed independently of them. I believe """Q""" and co. would not do this randomly, though. Only if it became a possibility that Trump could be deposed or in times of dire national crisis, such as the situation we currently find ourselves in.
#1187
that seems unlikely to me, because after Q disappeared, which was a long time ago, Qanon became this senile suckerfish school of conspiracy theory, they were a bunch of aging brains with no direction who latched on to the absolute weirdest dumbest most irrelevant stuff, one thing after another with less and less relevance each time. Like they all decided to become obsessed with JFK Jr.'s death for a while a couple years back and march around waving signs with his picture on them, and most people do not even remember who the fuck that is. Mobilizing them for some purpose related to the real world later on doesn't seem likely, either, because even if they hadn't drifted into the ether, their original mission statement was "Wait around until someone else buys us ponies for Christmas."
#1188
Q was probably your run-of-the-mill online hobbyist, and as soon as the date he called for the Trump coup against Trump's own government came and went, he stopped posting. Other people claimed to be him later, unconvincingly, or his successor or accomplice or whatever. But my guess is the guy either had a panic attack over his confabulation's make-or-break point, like those people who claim terminal illness online when they've given themselves one too many extensions on their fake prognosis, or he just figured it was a good time to stop before someone handed out his personal information. I doubt he knew the whole thing would take on a life of its own in spite of doomsday coming and going, and seeing the machine keep chugging away without him was probably satisfying enough.

There was this proto-Q who showed up before Q, during election season, in the exact same place online, and someone brought him up here and we all made fun of him. He claimed he was deep-cover FBI or something, and that Trump was going to release information that would send Hillary Clinton and "the entire government" to jail for treason that summer. He also claimed that the U.S. culture industry was a secret federal program to promote mixed-race babies. People ate it up for whatever reason, demanding more and more of this guy and giving him tons of attention, and Q is probably either that guy or, more likely, someone who saw what that guy managed to do just riffing off the top of his head and thought, Hell,
#1189
i'm inclined to agree with cars, although we do know that FBI spooks were actively disseminating propaganda and disinfo around the same places. the thing is though, if Q was a psyop it wasn't a grandiose scheme to build a ravening paramilitary horde, it was a basic propaganda project from a couple desk jockeys at an alphabet soup agency saying "we have this problem where people reading conspiracy stuff from these sites distrust the govt. what if we could leverage that distrust... to foster trust."

so they got a self perpetuating little blob of people to believe that no matter how bad things are now, the messiah will fix America next Tuesday as long as they keep the faith, and that was it. good job project complete, nothing more complicated to it. any greater ambitions would have too many moving parts to be feasible.
#1190

shriekingviolet posted:

i'm inclined to agree with cars, although we do know that FBI spooks were actively disseminating propaganda and disinfo around the same places.

LOL yeah that FBI guy who went on 4chan and tried to convince them they should hate Russia because it fixed the election for Trump. Beefy cyber strats

#1191
whoever started Qanon it's almost certainly just run by whoever the big guns are in selling the t-shirts & bumper stickers at this point imo
#1192
#1193
now that's ^ the content i come here for
#1194
Yeah Cars you're probably right. Just when there was that 'digital influencers' summit or whatever at the White House and like half of em' were major Q folks it really seemed like Trump knew what he was doing by inviting them.
#1195
Pretty sure I've posted this before but it's still insane to think about https://www.newsweek.com/2018/01/19/boston-marathon-bomb-maker-loose-776742.html

"FBI officials also have yet to explain why bureau agents were in the Tsarnaevs' neighborhood, which is roughly a mile from MIT, the night Dzhokhar killed Collier."

"The FBI maintains to this day that the bombers were not known to the bureau before those photos were made public, despite the fact that federal agents interviewed Tamerlan and his family multiple times in 2011"

As Topsfield cops and state police continued their search of Morley's bedroom and a shed in the backyard, the FBI suddenly showed up, leading one trooper to say, "Who called the feebs?"

"Morley was arrested by Topsfield police that day, charged with two counts of assault and battery against his mother and her companion, and with making a bomb threat. And then, nothing. The FBI showed up at Topsfield police headquarters and seized much of the evidence taken from Morley's home after Hayward executed a search warrant. Morley was never formally arraigned in connection with the charges that Hayward swore out in a criminal complaint, and those charges were abruptly dropped without explanation by the Essex County district attorney."

#1196
that was definitely some fuck shit
#1197
More from the Clarion Project:

#1198
So what the fuck happened with the Mandalay Bay shooting/shooter? It's mind-blowing that nobody has a fucking clue why the largest and deadliest mass shooting in US history even happened in the first place.
#1199
i think we call all agree it was just a tragic accident, there is nothing more to it, case closed
#1200
we all make mistakes :(