#241
within vegan activism, there are a couple different strategies, one strategy encourages going vegan by making health claims, environmental arguments, and leverages the harmful effects of animal agriculture on rural communities. the other strategy is the "vegan for the animals" strategy, which more or less acknowledges that all those other things are important, but brings it all home to a core ethical point that we aren't vegan for our benefit, but for the benefit of others. the big conflict between these strategies is that the first group argues that they are reducing animal suffering by encouraging small changes in people's behavior (meatless monday, reducing animal consumption, not scaring libs) while the radical position says that you won't fundamentally change society without attacking its foundation. Under this view, any strategy that legitimizes the existence of a society based on animal exploitation is corrupt

this has some similarities to approaches within anti-war/anti-imperialism activism within the us. there are many anti-war orgs that will criticize us aid to israel on the basis that the military aid could be better used for other uses ("money for education, not war and occupation"). the argument is that if we move the overton window slightly left, it is the first step to getting us to the end zone of communism. rally around bernie to defeat trump, because that gets us closer to our goal. if we just get more pro-union democrats in power, then we can rebuild the labor movement, which will be the base for socialist organizing and class consciousness, and on to the march to communism. the third worldist position flatly denies the possibility of collaborationism and instead rejects any legitimizing of labor aristocracy and imperialism.

which leads us to the end question, which strategy is most effective? netflix documentaries like what the health and game changers have probably resulted in quite a few animals not being killed, but they haven't structurally attacked the basis of animal exploitation. maybe bernie being elected might result in a professionalized imperialism that uses drones to assassinate people and fits within the existing legal framework instead of it happening illegally.

the most successful vegan movements have been ones that attack the legitimacy of the animal exploitation system and the most successful communist movements have attacked the legitimacy of imperialism and capitalism without settling for collaboration for short term gains.
#242
all this dnc primary stuff has helped me realise (or re-realise)

1. that i have no interest in socdem/demsoc politics or election horse race.

2. im gonna have to find a nice new hobby for the next 10 months to keep me occupied.

i know that's probably not news to anyone here. it's nice to have it re-asserted in my brain i think. a surprising amount of the people i follow on twitter and elsewhere are gung-ho about sanders and doing buttigieg rats jokes. all seems so rote.

Edited by Chthonic_Goat_666 ()

#243
I like the Buttigieg rat jokes where he's shopped onto an Animorphs cover and Chris Matthews is on T.V. ranting about being executed in Central Park by Castroites. That these dipshits get so mad at a bunch of nobodies tweeting rat emojis at them is just funny to me. Give me that at least. They act like you just crammed a dead one in their mailbox. But I've surprised myself at how little attention I've given now to the horse race considering I used to spend a bunch of time reading the polls and so on. But it's really a giant timesuck and not worth it.



There was also a Citations Needed episode about Nate Silver and "horse race" stuff about how the "who's up and who's down" shapes people's thinking toward passivity and the status quo. Like even talking about presidential elections with most people who are eager to talk about it feels like talking about sports or something and it's really boring. But y'all knew that already.

Edited by trakfactri ()

#244

Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

2. im gonna have to find a nice new hobby for the next 10 months to keep me occupied.

i know that's probably not news to anyone here. it's nice to have it re-asserted in my brain i think. a surprising amount of the people i follow on twitter and elsewhere are gung-ho about sanders and doing buttigieg rats jokes. all seems so rote.


it's time to catch up on your grindcore releases man

#245

Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

a surprising amount of the people i follow on twitter and elsewhere are gung-ho about sanders and doing buttigieg rats jokes. all seems so rote.


fair enough but at least the meta is funny

#246
america could benefit from a president with butt in their name
#247
#248
[account deactivated]
#249

AZ_IZ_OT posted:

Dependence on plant food is a cornerstone of empire but unnecessary for many indigenous peoples.


but have you tried

#250

Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

all this dnc primary stuff has helped me realise (or re-realise)

1. that i have no interest in socdem/demsoc politics or election horse race.

2. im gonna have to find a nice new hobby for the next 10 months to keep me occupied.

i know that's probably not news to anyone here. it's nice to have it re-asserted in my brain i think. a surprising amount of the people i follow on twitter and elsewhere are gung-ho about sanders and doing buttigieg rats jokes. all seems so rote.



yeah...... the only thing that matters to me about it is the CIA stuff, and the closer it gets to its fruition, the more and more it’s just Ap Lant sweeping in from one side and the Sanders/DSA recuperationists from the other, converting anger at the “intelligence community” into rabid support for anti-socialist “progressive” stuff, the more some part of me wishes we could just fast forward to the part where President _______ has to try to explain the humiliating defeat of the U.S. invasion of ________.

The best outcome of course is that there’s no post-election invasion of someplace by the U.S., but that’s only happening if it’s hit by a meteor or idk, many many nuclear bombs and missiles,

#251
I'm voting for the guy that lifts sanctions on Cuba.
#252
im paying attention because petey is a real life fuckin damien type antichrist who will bring about the end times. idk if you know much about end times but i personally am not going to succeed during the end times, myself. and he's simply a pleasure to mock. its pleasing.
#253
Watched a youtube about why Bernie is awesome and concluded most of these folks mean well. Sure a lot of their stances on foreign policy and really existing communism are incomplete and half-baked but that might be due to wanting palpable solutions they can participate in without feeling weird, instead of going nazbol upon discovering imperialist socdem reality like Orwell did in Wigan Pier. So probably a bit unfair to reduce (all of) them to 1st world proles clinging to faded gentility.
#254
One of the dangers of the left’s moral outrage arguments against imperialism is that it can sometimes create an anti-materialist view of capitalism and imperialism. Social democratic reforms aren’t implemented because there are more “good guys” than “bad guys” in office, it’s a response to class power and struggle.

We can’t reduce the harm of capitalism through electing more moral people because the problem with Obama, Bush, and Trump aren’t their moral foundations, it’s the material foundation of the system they sit on top of. If we don’t change the system or the balance of class power, nothing changes.


The real question is whether spending time and money getting Bernie elected to HHIC fundamentally creates or represents a shift in class power.
#255

pogfan1996 posted:

The real question is whether spending time and money getting Bernie elected to HHIC fundamentally creates or represents a shift in class power.


Obviously that's not the real question because such a shift is impossible in the amerikkkan context. The empire's dyin', cloud

#256

pogfan1996 posted:

One of the dangers of the left’s moral outrage arguments against imperialism is that it can sometimes create an anti-materialist view of capitalism and imperialism. Social democratic reforms aren’t implemented because there are more “good guys” than “bad guys” in office, it’s a response to class power and struggle.



I agree and am also aware such moral outrage can be circumspect or selective to a ridiculous degree, perhaps to the point of inducing moral outrage. And that selectiveness is also the product of material conditions, etc. "New Atheism" comes to mind (I found this forum last year via the Sam Harris essay). Despite that I believe it's a central element of anti-imperialist consciousness and not wholly interchangeable with living standards. Economic conditions aren't thoughts or values, though undeniably influence them very deeply. You can be doing fairly well and yet be caused by any number of material factors/conditions to come to understand why the system that makes or keeps you fairly well-off is very bad.

The real question is whether spending time and money getting Bernie elected to HHIC fundamentally creates or represents a shift in class power.



I'd say no but I was talking about his fans (if this was directed at me) ie categorically assuming or forecasting cynical labour aristocrat mental gymnastics. Most will default to that but I think a mild left-lib nominally taking on what Trump represents can still radicalise people and if you're in an org you should be able and willing to educate them without simultaneously voting for Bernie Sanders or even liking him as a person.

#257
Sanders to Chuck Todd: “You want to talk about cozying up to communists around the world? It ain’t me. It’s Donald Trump.”

Hm I wonder what this kind of candidate will be like, in power, at the helm of empire. Probably a good thing for the world. After all, decades of social democracy in Western Europe lead to, well, Boris Johnson and probably Marine Le Pen. He’s got my vote!
#258
I think we are pretty much on the same page vimingok, a lot of my thoughts are stemming from talking with self identified MLs that think the green new deal and Bernie will represent a fundamental win in the fight for communism.
#259
i wd kind of like some ppl i care abt to have good healthcare and not for instance have to get marriage of convenience to serviceman to get insulin
#260

dimashq posted:

Sanders to Chuck Todd: “You want to talk about cozying up to communists around the world? It ain’t me. It’s Donald Trump.”

Hm I wonder what this kind of candidate will be like, in power, at the helm of empire. Probably a good thing for the world. After all, decades of social democracy in Western Europe lead to, well, Boris Johnson and probably Marine Le Pen. He’s got my vote!


they already have trump, a socdem president at least offers the possibility of winding back the clock slightly on some of the most crushing aspects of empire's collapse for proles trapped in the core. if i sound like a broken record it's because i keep having to point out to you knuckleheads that sanders' lack of revolutionary potential is beside the point. people just want to slightly lesson the chance of dying like rabid dogs, denied basic health care or just straight up shot. could he really help change those things? i don't know, and nobody will ever find out because trump's going to win. but like, do you guys saying sanders is the worst option realise you're basically arguing for accelerationism?

#261
Sanders is the hippie rebrand on accelerationism. we all know that if Sanders actually try to do radical things, CIA will detonate the nano-bomb implanted to their left ventricle. Then a bunch of tanks will roll up to the Senate and the democrats will be like House of representatives is that way ->. Then a clown tank garishly painted with Donald Trump reviving a dead kid will swerve up and all our fave pundits will spill out to declare that basically, the Amerikan people voted for Sanders heart to burst like a soap bubble, with 85% in favor, including this black guy I met. Amd at this crutial point- the value of my family's poop mines skyrockets.
#262
You guys are all the gross cartoon doomer boy and i am the cute doomer girl explaining to you that your opinions are dumb and wrong and you will never get in my pants.
#263
#264

Petrol posted:

dimashq posted:

Sanders to Chuck Todd: “You want to talk about cozying up to communists around the world? It ain’t me. It’s Donald Trump.”

Hm I wonder what this kind of candidate will be like, in power, at the helm of empire. Probably a good thing for the world. After all, decades of social democracy in Western Europe lead to, well, Boris Johnson and probably Marine Le Pen. He’s got my vote!

they already have trump, a socdem president at least offers the possibility of winding back the clock slightly on some of the most crushing aspects of empire's collapse for proles trapped in the core. if i sound like a broken record it's because i keep having to point out to you knuckleheads that sanders' lack of revolutionary potential is beside the point. people just want to slightly lesson the chance of dying like rabid dogs, denied basic health care or just straight up shot. could he really help change those things? i don't know, and nobody will ever find out because trump's going to win. but like, do you guys saying sanders is the worst option realise you're basically arguing for accelerationism?



Rhizzone ain’t for cheerleading! Fuck to Amerika

#265

dimashq posted:

Fuck to Amerika


one thing we can all agree on

#266

Petrol posted:

they already have trump, a socdem president at least offers the possibility of winding back the clock slightly on some of the most crushing aspects of empire's collapse for proles trapped in the core. if i sound like a broken record it's because i keep having to point out to you knuckleheads that sanders' lack of revolutionary potential is beside the point. people just want to slightly lesson the chance of dying like rabid dogs, denied basic health care or just straight up shot. could he really help change those things? i don't know, and nobody will ever find out because trump's going to win. but like, do you guys saying sanders is the worst option realise you're basically arguing for accelerationism?


something i dont understand about this perspective is what, practically speaking, the difference would be between a sanders presidency and the obama presidency, in ways that are tangible and robust enough to matter for planning and decisions about how to organize radical groups, etc. if the answer is that its the same then at least thats descriptive

#267
[account deactivated]
#268
[account deactivated]
#269

c_man posted:

something i dont understand about this perspective is what, practically speaking, the difference would be between a sanders presidency and the obama presidency, in ways that are tangible and robust enough to matter for planning and decisions about how to organize radical groups, etc. if the answer is that its the same then at least thats descriptive


Chance to dig up Rosa and kill her again. That's what I'm banking on

#270

c_man posted:

something i dont understand about this perspective is what, practically speaking, the difference would be between a sanders presidency and the obama presidency,


i'm not sure how that's pertinent to 2020. trump is president, and people are faced with the choice to try and replace him, and if so, with whom. as i've said time and time again, i think it's just tilting at windmills, but the thing about sanders is he presents a unique combination of good policy (as far as these things go) and theoretical electability. whether he could, in practice, be any better than obama is kind of beside the point.

now, does it make sense for any erstwhile revolutionary marxist parties to try and get out the vote for sanders? probably not, but frankly none of those parties make sense to me anyway. they're not going to be the vanguard of a communist revolution so they might as well do something useful. to me, something useful would just be community service type stuff. a soup kitchen. whatever. it's not like they have any power to impact the vote anyway.

#271

AZ_IZ_OT posted:

8 years of sanders could lead to capital's strategic apparatuses releasing the floodgates on accumulated superprofits in an attempt to bribe the american masses. which is what invigorates his base. it's what americans want.



Or getting assassinated by the CIA.

Let's see which one history says is more likely:

#272
not going to support a violently anti-Communist, war-criminal imperialist... can only speak for myself but I have too much self-respect for that
#273
Look at mister too-pure-to-vote-for-a-hitler over here
#274

vimingok posted:

Watched a youtube about why Bernie is awesome and concluded most of these folks mean well. Sure a lot of their stances on foreign policy and really existing communism are incomplete and half-baked but that might be due to wanting palpable solutions they can participate in without feeling weird, instead of going nazbol upon discovering imperialist socdem reality like Orwell did in Wigan Pier. So probably a bit unfair to reduce (all of) them to 1st world proles clinging to faded gentility.



https://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/2nd-congress/ch07.htm

Lenin: Comrades, Serrati has said that we have not yet invented a sincérometre – that is a new French word that means an instrument for measuring sincerity. Such an instrument has not yet been invented. We do not need such an instrument, but we already have an instrument for judging trends.

...They are all sincere socialists, joking apart, but they are against the dictatorship of the proletariat!

... One does not need to look for a sincerometer and make jokes about it like Comrade Serrati in order to know the simple fact that there is and must be a struggle of tendencies. One tendency is the revolutionaries, the workers who have just come to us, the enemies of the labour aristocracy. The other tendency is the labour aristocracy, which in all the civilised countries is represented by the old leaders.




AZ_IZ_OT posted:

8 years of sanders could lead to capital's strategic apparatuses releasing the floodgates on accumulated superprofits in an attempt to bribe the american masses. which is what invigorates his base. it's what americans want.



You're ascribing way too much to a Sanders presidency, that's not going to happen. if the class antagonisms were that severe there wouldn't be any super-profits left to share.

Edited by marlax78 ()

#275
I've written plenty about this on this forum before, but the odds are nil of Sanders somehow overturning the complete domination of the United States federal government by private health insurers. Anything he proposed as President would be gutted by the industry's legislators before it passed, and anything that passed would be circumvented by their lawyers and accountants before it even began to be enforced. And if and when the government started to enforce whatever was left, the Supreme Court would overturn it. There will be no reform for health care in the United States, because there is not even a feigned recognition of the right to it, and nearly the entire force of the national legislature, courts and administrative bodies are arrayed against it, backed up by the heavily militarized U.S. police forces if it comes to that. Change will happen when Congress is marched out of their meeting house at gunpoint, or it won't happen at all.
#276
No duh.
#277
Do you guys remember 2016 when the Green Party ran a more communist ticket for the presidency than all the communist parties did
#278
Cynthia McKinney (2008 Green Party candidate) is so awesome they gerrymandered her district specifically to stop her from getting elected again
#279
*gripping my opponent in a headlock* I AGREE WITH YOU, MOTHERFUCKER, YOU ARE CORRECT, *kicking him in the ribs* FORTUNATELY ARE ON THE SAME PAGE YOU PIECE OF SHIT *hefting a folding chair* GLAD TO CALL YOU COMRADE, NOW, PERISH-
#280
You see what's happening here, the discourse is getting all sucked up into the primaries. Might need to take a break from activism until at least June and then start thinking about what will fuck white people up the most