#201
https://incendiarynews.com/2019/11/10/kansas-lawrence-dsa-tries-to-cover-up-allegations-of-sexual-abuse-with-bureaucracy-and-red-baiting/
#202
the weirdest aspect of the pro-prostitution lefty position is that it openly acknowledges the coercion involved in prostitution but insists that legalization/unionization will be an effective remedy for the physical, psychological, and emotional damage that it inherently results in
#203
It's the essence of DSA-style left-liberalism in a lot of ways. Social transformation upsets DSA types' fantasies of the personal futures they feel they deserve at the cost of exploitation elsewhere, so "socialism" becomes no more and no less than an impossible return of the peak-Western-rape-of-Asia welfare state, of Marcuse's iron triangle of patriotic unions, state and companies. Prostitution messes people up mind, body and soul in unique ways, it exploits children to satisfy depraved demand that adults can't meet, few people would do it for any amount of compensation if they had alternatives, so, uhhhh it's a category that should be protected from oppression instead of a form of oppression, and it needs a trade union and a K Street lobby and a pimps' rights organization.

You get the impression it would be pretty easy to bully a lot of the DSA "pro-sex work" guys into agreeing to Trot-style lower-the-age-of-consent legalization of pedophilia.
#204

cars posted:

It's the essence of DSA-style left-liberalism in a lot of ways. Social transformation upsets DSA types' fantasies of the personal futures they feel they deserve at the cost of exploitation elsewhere, so "socialism" becomes no more and no less than an impossible return of the peak-Western-rape-of-Asia welfare state, of Marcuse's iron triangle of patriotic unions, state and companies. Prostitution messes people up mind, body and soul in unique ways, it exploits children to satisfy depraved demand that adults can't meet, few people would do it for any amount of compensation if they had alternatives, so, uhhhh it's a category that should be protected from oppression instead of a form of oppression, and it needs a trade union and a K Street lobby and a pimps' rights organization.

You get the impression it would be pretty easy to bully a lot of the DSA "pro-sex work" guys into agreeing to Trot-style lower-the-age-of-consent legalization of pedophilia.


You wouldn't need to bully them.

#205

Flappo posted:

You wouldn't need to bully them.


Edited by cars ()

#206
I remember the sudden fad a few years back where Harper's and other snob lefty-liberal outlets launched a campaign saying child sex-trafficking wasn't a big deal, that it was just a fake cause Hollywood celebrities used for publicity, that the idea of worldwide child-prostitution rings was a dangerous and baseless conspiracy theory. (This was well before the "Pizzagate" code-word-diviner business took off.) For Some Unknown Reason all those people have shut up recently, but my guess is most of the people receptive to those ideas had already quietly become Bernie Sanders voters, because he's the faux-iconoclast's choice.

Now they're "Epstein didn't kill himself" types, but catch them a few years ago and they would have attacked anyone as a liar or even antisemite who pointed to Epstein's extensive record in the public eye, to the sort of stuff we discussed on this forum in Petrol's famous power-thread, and so on. They would have congratulated themselves for being above what they saw as the petty paranoia of humanity's cattle—not rising above it, but being above it, forever and ever, bound for Harper's Monthly Heaven.

Today, these left-liberals, especially the younger successors of the old guard, perceive themselves as the "socialist" elect. They're eager to hunt for scapegoats so they can have the "good" United States Senator, the "good" bourgeois, the "good" pimp, on their side and providing them with all the prompt service they feel they are due.
#207
reminder that nobody gave a fuck about epstein, aside from actively defending him, so long as the presumption that he was merely trafficking adults lasted. the rape industry is enormously powerful and virtually unequestioned in mainstream media aside from token opposition by extreme reactionaries they allow to make themselves look progressive or whatever. even post-epstein they seem to be mostly concerned with narrative control positioning him as anomalous, rather than simply embodying the mass-scale problem. Outside of those prestige publications changing their tune slightly, their defenders still come out in droves any time any high visibility incident or investigation gets publicity or any time the propriety of sexual servitude is publically questioned.
#208
Iowa being couped by Special Agent Butticheek. caucus results are stuck in heck half a day after the fact. the one advantage of the caucus process and its literal stone age methodology is that it ought to make results pretty transparent and quick to verify. so the DNC insisted on enforcing the use of a phone app, which predictably is broken unusable shit, made by a company run by a person married to a prominent staffer in the spooky mayor campaign. it seems rather quixotic to attempt to steal a caucus, because its not really possible to do it in the same way as with a primary, but it seems like the point is to make sure the true results are late and uncertain enough that they become a non story


Edited by littlegreenpills ()

#209
"daylight cia ops" as cars says
#210
I propose that domestic US politics be relegated to the alchoholism subforum
#211

littlegreenpills posted:

it seems rather quixotic to attempt to steal a caucus, because its not really possible to do it in the same way as with a primary, but it seems like the point is to make sure the true results are late and uncertain enough that they become a non story



they really are trying to steal it. it's so fucking obvious and everybody will ignore it. why do i do this to myself

#212
Did anyone else see this?

https://www.liberationnews.org/the-bernie-sanders-campaign-and-building-the-movement-for-socialism-in-the-us/

They're going to run candidates but if Sanders wins they'll stay out of "swing states" (undefined) and they encourage everyone to vote for Sanders in the primary (if you're already going to? I guess you've been kidnapped and forced to hit a button on the voting machine). It's such a bizarre position and then on reddit I had someone unironically defend Browderism as a justification. It's really bugging me since I can't bring myself to write off the PSL, it has some good people in it but appears to have terrible leadership and not a lot of democracy.
#213

littlegreenpills posted:

they really are trying to steal it. it's so fucking obvious and everybody will ignore it. why do i do this to myself


#214

babyhueypnewton posted:

Did anyone else see this?

https://www.liberationnews.org/the-bernie-sanders-campaign-and-building-the-movement-for-socialism-in-the-us/

They're going to run candidates but if Sanders wins they'll stay out of "swing states" (undefined) and they encourage everyone to vote for Sanders in the primary (if you're already going to? I guess you've been kidnapped and forced to hit a button on the voting machine). It's such a bizarre position


the way I see it, the amount of obvious effort going into fucking over the sanders campaign is a really big opportunity for propaganda and outreach. in the inevitable denouement of this ratfuck a lot of sanders supporters are going to get a clue, realize the democratic party will always override them in the interests of the capitalist class, and start looking elsewhere. if you have a strategy like the PSL's and want to build up support its better to make nice with those highly engaged people who might be sympathetic to your politics through friendly gestures, rather than putting on your skimask to wage protracted people's war on the DSA's a/v cart.

dithering about where they will and won't run candidates is a little silly but that's the kind of situational compromise that floats to the top when you've committed to a strategy of electoral visibility but still want to have good optics for the above stuff.

babyhueypnewton posted:

and then on reddit I had someone unironically defend Browderism as a justification.


healthy thing to do here is not think too hard about reddit posts, if one absolutely must read them at all

#215
why would frustrated socdems of the imperial core swing towards communism lol
#216
just spitballing at PSL strategy here, personally as a platonic ideal red who sprang from zeus' head fully form'd, i have no idea
#217
All of the defenders of the PSL position on other forums miss the point that they could be just as effective at pulling Bernie supporters by making the standard ML argument: the ruling class will work to undermine any progressive movement, reforms are rooted in organizing, join the fight to keep pulling the country left. The PSL position is a profound shift towards great man theory and electoralism. Maybe Brian Becker or Gloria La Riva are angling for a new Marcy-type ideological leadership position

Even the FRSO, which actively supports and helps on the campaigns of further left democrats, refused to endorse Bernie in 2015/2016:

http://fightbacknews.org/2015/7/20/commentary-presidential-candidacy-bernie-sanders
#218
Frankly, much has changed since 2016. If you're going to engage with electoral politics at all you are already talking about some degree of strategic compromise. People are genuinely scared of the political milieu right now, not unreasonably. And they hold out some hope that Sanders could beat Trump and that, if he did, some of the most vulnerable people (domestically at least haha) could be afforded some relief in the immediate term. On the first point they are wrong so it's all academic, but on the second point they are right, and it's probably unfair to be mad at them for trying. PSL or whoever are never going to become the vanguard that leads a communist revolution in the united snake of amrika so who cares anyway. Give them a damn break
#219
I can understand in theory that many people are far more radicalized, already the semi-mainstream of left-liberalism thinks the election is being stolen and professional respect for all democratic candidates has been thrown out the window. When Sanders loses and Trump wins it will leave a mark. Obviously we here at the 'zzone understand the PSL is trying to appeal to labor aristocrats and petty-bourgeois but even at the level of strategy it doesn't make too much sense. Either don't run a candidate at all like the DSA and fully commit to recruiting Sanders supporters even if it's just in the short term or run your candidate and commit to being right there to point out why Sanders was betrayed but also his failures. Running a candidate but not in "swing states," which I don't even know what they are given demographic shifts and the polarization Trump created, seems like a waste of resources and a great way to alienate communists in these states (especially since the "swing" is often a growing latino population). They've been flooded with Sanders liberals since 2016 and it's pushing them towards becoming a more centralized DSA imo.

PSL isn't going to lead the revolution and practically speaking this makes no difference. But they consistently underestimate the internet where bad PR can spiral out of control and the world consists of these articles turned into digestible memes. If your focus is petty-bourgeois who vote instead of the majority who don't or can't you've entered this world. I'm sure they see this as expanding focus but practically they've compromised for no gain, DSA will pick up those people who are alienated by the way Sanders is treated but not with Sanders himself while I don't know who will pick up those who become disgusted with the system and drift towards Marxism-Leninism but it won't be the PSL which is reaching the limits of its action-focused bricolage of ML and Marcyism.

I want to be wrong though, my initial reaction was disgust but I haven't been politically active since I stopped trying to join the PSL a couple of years ago.
#220
The treatment of the most vulnerable people at home is more heavily dependent on militancy and organizing rather than the HHIC. Obama deported more immigrants than Trump, the reduction in deportations is highly tied to the level of organization in pro-immigrant communities. Obviously there’s a lot of factors but the argument that Bernie is a gentler Head Hitler In Charge probably won’t stand up to reality
#221
i respect the choices of others but will continue to fulfill my required role in the hive-mind by providing the positions of future radicalized labor aristos 3-8 months in advance. If i’m not pushy about it they’ll miss the pick-up window and end up writing for the Guardian about how calling the CIA man a CIA man is bad for socialism.
#222
the sage sits atop his crystal pillar in the desert meditating on the Immortal Science. over time the actions of the mundanes below, the unenlightened who foolishly chose to contaminate themselves through contact with material reality, begin to seem quite strange indeed.
#223
you really don’t know me
#224
that... wasn't addressed at you cars, read the room much?
#225
i just find it a little funny to see BHPN flustered overanalyzing the PSL election line, even though I mostly agree with him! when you go to the clown world you gotta put on the clown makeup. so yeah they're making some silly choices, but,

#226

pogfan1996 posted:

The treatment of the most vulnerable people at home is more heavily dependent on militancy and organizing rather than the HHIC. Obama deported more immigrants than Trump, the reduction in deportations is highly tied to the level of organization in pro-immigrant communities. Obviously there’s a lot of factors but the argument that Bernie is a gentler Head Hitler In Charge probably won’t stand up to reality


It's easy to say that but the reality on the ground really is more nuanced. The situation right now is one in which ICE agents are drunk with power having been jacked off by the president in the SOTU and they're running around killing people with impunity. It's not just about a cold statistic on deportations. Would Bernie be better in practice? It's not crazy for people to think so when his policy is literally "abolish ICE".

#227

babyhueypnewton posted:

Obviously we here at the 'zzone understand the PSL is trying to appeal to labor aristocrats and petty-bourgeois but even at the level of strategy it doesn't make too much sense. Either don't run a candidate at all like the DSA and fully commit to recruiting Sanders supporters even if it's just in the short term or run your candidate and commit to being right there to point out why Sanders was betrayed but also his failures.


Petrol posted:

People are genuinely scared of the political milieu right now, not unreasonably.


Since babyp mentions encountering a Reddit Browderite I've been reading Browder's "People's Front" from 1936 because I like punishment. It's interesting though as a historical document with him screaming about Norman Thomas and going into these little footnoted details about beef between ML and Trot organizers in Minnesota and things like that from the time, and I like how it's this big hardback book that was laying out their whole line on the 1936 elections and the ultra-reactionary Alf Landon - Wall Street - Liberty League - Black Legion axis! But my eyes also started to glaze over because of the convoluted rigmarole about how they were not supporting Roosevelt, but they wouldn't "train their fire" at Roosevelt, and also how it was necessary for everyone to support Roosevelt except not really. Or something. I'm sitting in a Waffle House reading this and going OH COME ON. But I think Petrol is right that people are freaked out and quite literally scared, and I get that sense from Browder when he goes into the Coughlinites and the Black Legion who were running deaths squads in the Midwest out of local Republican Party offices. I have no idea what a "correct" political strategy is or whatever.

#228
I didn't like the article because it reads like Chris Hedges ghostwrote for Pecker. The same sort of lib-left naivete that says it's actually the Senator getting conned, the Senator is the insurgent yadda yadda while it's his working-class/labor aristocrat/petty bourgeois base doing most of the campaign's busywork, having their votes suppressed and given no actual guarantee he'll do anything once in office.
#229
I should clarify that in the true spirit of online discussion, I did not read the article.
#230
you are an honorable poster. namaste.
#231
I’m more worried that Sanders could be the best thing for empire. Maybe he’s a renegade who will own the libs, but he may also be a guy with a movement behind him that strengthens imperial institutions (obviously I don’t mean sanders as a person but rather the material situation that will only be clear once the owl takes flight, etc etc). If the PSL is hoping to radicalize labor aristocrats, I think it’ll take way more than Trump winning or the CIA burning down a dumb caucus to do that, given that turning imperialist war into a civil war in North America is what communists truly want and it’s also the last thing DSA types desire regardless of how “tankie” they are on the political compass meme.
#232
I mean how do you turn social fascism into socialism anyway?
#233
turn that brown upside down
#234
#235

pogfan1996 posted:

Even the FRSO, which actively supports and helps on the campaigns of further left democrats, refused to endorse Bernie in 2015/2016:


most of the frso people i know online and thats quite a few are jumping behind bernie somewhat enthusiastically this round at least, even if frso hasnt said anything themselves

#236

dimashq posted:

I’m more worried that Sanders could be the best thing for empire. Maybe he’s a renegade who will own the libs, but he may also be a guy with a movement behind him that strengthens imperial institutions (obviously I don’t mean sanders as a person but rather the material situation that will only be clear once the owl takes flight, etc etc). If the PSL is hoping to radicalize labor aristocrats, I think it’ll take way more than Trump winning or the CIA burning down a dumb caucus to do that, given that turning imperialist war into a civil war in North America is what communists truly want and it’s also the last thing DSA types desire regardless of how “tankie” they are on the political compass meme.


Trump's the best thing for empire imo. For a rough idea of what Sanders will (=won't) do in office read this:
https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf

#237

shriekingviolet posted:

i just find it a little funny to see BHPN flustered overanalyzing the PSL election line, even though I mostly agree with him! when you go to the clown world you gotta put on the clown makeup. so yeah they're making some silly choices, but,



i didn't know luigi was hung like a god

#238

vimingok posted:

dimashq posted:

I’m more worried that Sanders could be the best thing for empire. Maybe he’s a renegade who will own the libs, but he may also be a guy with a movement behind him that strengthens imperial institutions (obviously I don’t mean sanders as a person but rather the material situation that will only be clear once the owl takes flight, etc etc). If the PSL is hoping to radicalize labor aristocrats, I think it’ll take way more than Trump winning or the CIA burning down a dumb caucus to do that, given that turning imperialist war into a civil war in North America is what communists truly want and it’s also the last thing DSA types desire regardless of how “tankie” they are on the political compass meme.

Trump's the best thing for empire imo. For a rough idea of what Sanders will (=won't) do in office read this:
https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf




The "green new deal" is a new round of handouts to the amerikan bourgeoisie and isnt something communists should celebrate. As far as the administration of empire, imo sanders likely represents a return to the obama trajectory of emphasis on professionalized and capital intensive imperial disruption. You can expect more of what we've seen in libya, syris, bolivia etc. Hear it from his foreign policy advisor:

c_man posted:

Sanders' foreign policy advisor



And chaser:


Imo the question of who is "better" for US empire is misleading. In each case certain sectors of imperial administrators and warmongers will take develop new imperial aggressions, and use different methods, with "effectiveness" measured in superprofits and global coercion, and sanders wants to Make America Great Again and defend it from communism just as much as anyone who would want the job.

#239

Petrol posted:

I should clarify that in the true spirit of online discussion, I did not read the article.


#240

c_man posted:

The "green new deal" is a new round of handouts to the amerikan bourgeoisie and isnt something communists should celebrate. As far as the administration of empire, imo sanders likely represents a return to the obama trajectory of emphasis on professionalized and capital intensive imperial disruption.



I meant the GND is something they (DSA or whoever) cooked up to hide the fact they can't figure out how to redistribute imperialist rent within a leftist/socialist framework.