#1001
anti-vaccination propaganda is pig shit, Actually.
#1002
Socialists cannot abide this "do what you feel" "personal choice" liberalism. It is absolutely socialist and required of socialists to "pressure" other socialists to do what is proper and to guide others by doing it. To work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather.
#1003
If you want a Cuban vaccine, go to Cuba. They will put it right in you before they let you step foot outside of quarantine if you arrive unvaccinated, not because it will cure you if you have COVID, but because you should be vaccinated against it. This is entirely correct.
#1004

dizastar posted:

most if not all here live in parasitic states, being a novaxxer and being indirectly complicit in the killings of labor aristocrats is an updated revolutionary defeatism. u guys post day in day out about the united $nake$, amerikkka, capital export, fifth column and being a saboteur is organizing in the core etc but push comes to shove everyone became divided on some totally otherwordly debate between the peer pressure hysterical get the vaccine crowd and the 'im gonna wait for bourgeois institutions who make things OK for consumption to finally take the vaccine :)' crowd. both those positions are liberalism and reactionary. every other day i come across the lamentations of a poster 'ah i had to tal kto this reactionary guy from work'. why didnt you infect him? low-intensity warfare contains the word warfare in it, if we cant use bombs or guns we'll make it up by using germs get to work comrade and make sure the hospitals stay full


i like the part of your plan where the virus will also end up infecting non labour aristocrats.

#1005
While i'm here, in case anyone is taking the idea of (opposing vaccination) = (bourgeois / labor aristocracy / white genocide) seriously: what actually happens in the capitalist mode of production when communicable disease spreads among the unimmunized is this. The wealthy buy treatment and live. The poor can't and die. Disease spreads and mutates in the wild and those immune to it become vulnerable again. Capital does not respect global borders, and neither does disease; again, Cuba is not vaccinating everyone who steps foot on their shores because that will cure tourists of COVID and thus protect Cuba from it; Cuba's health policy has always had a global focus and taken global responsibility where other states will not, and I am extremely disappointed that anyone posting here doesn't know the bare minimum of history to understand that. Anti-vaccination propaganda is objectively pro-bourgeois and white-supremacist. This is part of what I mean when I explain that it is objectively anti-socialist.
#1006

lo posted:

i like the part of your plan where the virus will also end up infecting non labour aristocrats.


#1007

cars posted:

This is part of what I mean when I explain that it is objectively anti-socialist.



thanks for clarifying that. i agree that may be generally true, although the current situation is unfolding through an unprescedented intensification of the contradictions in capitalism, fortress nationalism, surveillance, media manipulation/coercion, social control/policing, and rapidly shifting balances in networks of power and collusion.

in your own posts on other subjects you sharply unpack that kind of nuance. i'm surprised that here you are showing hostility to others attempting to approach this similarly (misanthropic posts not withstanding). from how i'm reading it, i think there is a risk of empowering the kind of position you often criticize elsewhere; presenting 'science' as monolithic and unassailable, emerging from a plane of existence untouched by the influences stated above, an end and not a process.

i'm trying to make this post constructively by the way. you said yourself you are facinated by the difference in perspective outside the u$a. as the above dynamics are playing out asymetrically, i've also found it valuable to stay connected to others outside the eu/us. in doing so i've been reminded that what is 'correct' can also be highly contextual when figuring out what saftey/care/responsibility means in practice.

rather than a 'vax debate', what i'm more interested in is how to disentangle these complex realities from monolithic narratives presented to us.

#1008

Gssh posted:

the current situation is unfolding through an unprescedented intensification of the contradictions in capitalism, fortress nationalism, surveillance, media manipulation/coercion, social control/policing, and rapidly shifting balances in networks of power and collusion.

in your own posts on other subjects you sharply unpack that kind of nuance.


it does us all a disservice to conflate the question of vaccines (do they work, is it right to be vaccinated and encourage others to do so) with all that other stuff. cars and i have been extremely consistent about this - we vehemently oppose allowing loose, superstitious talk about vaccine efficacy. practically everything else is up for debate and discussion and should be. just not nonsense like "my gut tells me that vaccine ain't right! and i have the gut of an engineer, do with that knowledge what you will!"

#1009
*calmly weaving daisy crowns in a field* I agree with both of you about the greater importance of the complex realities.
#1010
tbh I just did not expect anyone to drag the conversation away from those realities and into what I'd already identified as ever-shifting far-right conspiracy theory. Like i expected someone to tote that business in from some other site they read every now and then, this is Rhizzone after all, but i didn't think anyone would try to advance it as anything but ironic clowning or trying to strike a Posting pose, i thought people here had been immunized against that stuff already. I'm very happy to go back to talking about the police state instead if all the rest of it is settled.
#1011
maoists third waveists destroying the imperialist beast from within

#1012

Gssh posted:

web 1.0 ghettos like here



#1013
hating amerikkka is now misanthropic, check
#1014
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/08/13/cdc-fda-women-covid-19-vaccines-menstrual-disruption/
#1015
i wonder if marcie smith parenti is related to the more famous parenti, tHE rHizzonE poster named "Parenti"
#1016

cars posted:

tbh I just did not expect anyone to drag the conversation away from those realities and into what I'd already identified as ever-shifting far-right conspiracy theory. Like i expected someone to tote that business in from some other site they read every now and then, this is Rhizzone after all, but i didn't think anyone would try to advance it as anything but ironic clowning or trying to strike a Posting pose, i thought people here had been immunized against that stuff already. I'm very happy to go back to talking about the police state instead if all the rest of it is settled.



If your definition of the police state is so narrow it absolves the medical-pharmaceutical apparatus of any possible suspicion you're on shaky ground to be moralizing about "conspiracy theory", we know anyway the security state launders deformed bits of the truth through cultivatedly embarrassing figures precisely in order to immunize respekkktable amerikans against further inquiry

#1017

neckwattle posted:

If your definition of the police state is so narrow it absolves the medical-pharmaceutical apparatus of any possible suspicion


if we want to treat this as a purely philosophical question (which again, we shouldn't, because science exists), let's break it down, shall we?

1. pharmaceutical companies are untrustworthy
2. pharmaceutical companies make covid vaccines
3. covid vaccines are untrustworthy

now i don't have a phd in logic but this doesn't add up for me. maybe we're missing some steps? we could do a pros and cons list perhaps. has anyone crunched the numbers on how much money pfizer stands to make if the vaccine turns everyone into lizards vs how much they make if the vaccine works as advertised?

#1018

neckwattle posted:

If your definition of the police state is so narrow it absolves the medical-pharmaceutical apparatus of any possible suspicion



1) it's not

2) it doesn't

#1019

gay_swimmer posted:

I've been reading a lot about tarot and chaos magick lately so I basically no longer have any criteria for evaluating information for veracity anymore, so this thread has been a lot for me to take in


#1020
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2017/089.pdf

From the mid 70’s to the late 2010s the number of hospital beds in the US dropped by roughly 30% while the population increased by about 50%. If the per capita levels of the 70’s had been maintained there would be twice as many hospital beds now.

During most of that period occupancy rates stayed relatively flat. More outpatient work, faster turnover, less resources being used in the books. Reminds me of the logic of “just in time” manufacturing that came to prominence over the same time frame. The logic of capitalist accounting that pushes down every little inefficiency, demands that every asset that can be counted in the spreadsheet be constantly in motion or leveraged, the whole apparatus tuned into a perfectly optimized and humming machine. Until there is one little unforeseen hiccup (or a fucking global pandemic) and the machine has absolutely no resilience or flexibility. Every “just in time” order becomes late at the same time, waves of shutdowns and then forced overtime passing through industry after industry, some few capitalists (through the luck or wisdom of stockpiling, or the brute savagery of forcing demands on workers and customers) making out with riches while most hardships are passed on the workers at both ends - layoffs, forced overtime, consumer good shortages or rapid inflation.

Edited by solidar ()

#1021
i know that this thread has gotten out of control and also know that i lost my temper two or so pages ago, so i bring this up without being contentious but genuinely curious.

now that even the U$ officials agree with my earlier post that the vaccines are not working (or at the very least that their effectiveness is waning - i leave the difference between those two points up to your interpretation but do not see a difference myself), and that indeed more of the same vaccine is going to be necessary, how do the people who found my skepticism of the vaccine respond?

in my view, if you want to build a fire, you don't keep adding endless piles of sodden twigs to it but instead re-evaluate and go out to find some dry logs before you continue. i guess that i don't see (or can't imagine) how more of the same is going to get anyone anywhere. and to be clear, i am not saying to any uninformed or uncritical spectator that you shouldn't get the shot. i am instead asking why it is reasonable to believe a plan that already did not (or eventually will not) work.
#1022
The pandemic has resulted in BLM protests and the revelation that the united states is a dumpster fire. This is the deepest change in the bourgeois narrative since the 2001 attacks. Any student of dialectics knows that having lost something is utterly different than never having it, so there can never be a "back to normal" as much as reactionaries desperately claim it will happen in a few months. I think the situation is ripe to ask, if we can't trust in the vaccine, what can we trust in.
#1023
I think the issue is that you're lumping in the efficacy of the vaccine with the broadening surveillance state, special powers, etc. without demonstrating any firm link or mounting an argument on the evidence against linking the two.

The vaccine actually has been effective in reducing the severity of covid infection. Most of the deaths and hospitalization due to covid after vaccinations have become broadly available in the west are unvaccinated people. It has failed to reduce community transmission at the level it was expected to, which obviously is a failure and doesn't help end the pandemic, but it was also unavoidable without taking the kind of transmission reduction measures that we saw in China and Vietnam. The way I understand it, it would have been impossible for vaccine makers and researchers to predict and deal with all the possible variants and mutations. But your arguments don't consider these facts, so in that void your vision of the tightly controlled techno-capitalist future leaves nothing but skepticism. If the vaccine "doesn't work" and the capitalists are so highly advanced in surveillance and social control, and they're using the opportunity of the pandemic to expand and deepen that control, then it seems like you're arguing that the vaccines themselves are nothing but a tool of surveillance and control as well.

I think it's more realistic to take into account how the vaccine genuinely does have positive effects on personal and public health, how the security apparatuses of the state are in general against the vaccine on principle, and how the type of social control in the name of public health you're describing never came to pass in the United States, and conclude that the vaccines are not suspicious in and of themselves. The worst thing about them I've seen so far is the west using them as an easy way to discriminate against migrants from the rest of the world (e.g. residents of San Marino got the Sputnik vaccine and now cannot enter Italy because the "vaccine passport" program only allows for the American, European, and Australian vaccines).
#1024
I also think some of the surveillance state talk in this thread has been treating the pandemic as if the capitalist states have been just waiting and dreaming of this, rather than totally unprepared. Like, talking about Zoom and all that as if it was all developed just for this moment rather than as part of the constant revolutionizing of production. Nobody behind these technologies had any idea that a pandemic would make them as prominent as they are and could never have prepared for it. It was a happy coincidence for them. We could have just as well had a major solar flare in 2020 that would have disrupted and damaged all electronic communications which the capitalist states are even less prepared for.
#1025
i understand your critique of my reasoning to a point but here is where i am stuck (and is why i brought it up again). i am no longer talking about surveillance whatsoever (and am completely disinterested in having that conversation any further on this website) but purely the vaccine itself.

colddays posted:

The vaccine actually has been effective in reducing the severity of covid infection. Most of the deaths and hospitalization due to covid after vaccinations have become broadly available in the west are unvaccinated people



this is fine but now the CDC and euro-adjacent versions are stating what i said before, which is that this is not going to last and that everyone is going to need a booster shot(s). this in light of the fact that not very much time has passed at all since vaccine rollout (especially in europe). a number of people made a big deal about me posting this literal information a week ago (because it was anti-materialist, anti-socialist, right-wing, whatever), and now it comes direct from source.

i know that the major problem that comes with asking these questions is that nobody actually knows and that all one can hope is for as little death and suffering as possible. so maybe the real answer is to gas all of my posts and disregard my questions as totally superfluous and overly pessimistic. this nonsense is complicated and i am trying to make sense of it with a community of posters who i generally respect and agree with.

#1026

colddays posted:

I also think some of the surveillance state talk in this thread has been treating the pandemic as if the capitalist states have been just waiting and dreaming of this,


and yes, i would say that imperialist states have long been waiting for a disaster that they hope to exploit in order to ultimately strengthen their borders, enhance top-down control, monitor social movement in novel and more invasive ways, and worse. the fact that nobody is outright responsible for this crisis is even better for the imperialists, so long as they maintain hegemonic status.

#1027
the problem is the rapid barely inhibited spread of the novel virus forking into variants that the vaccines weren't developed to address, and from what I understand the vaccine antibodies do still provide a meaningful amount of protection (less hospitalizations and deaths in vaccinated people who contract the Delta variant)

this is a failure of containment, preventative measures, and effective logistics for the vaccine rollout, because our governments have rendered themselves completely incapable of properly doing something for the public good. it's not a failure of vaccination as a strategy. I think that you're engaging in all or nothing thinking here that isn't really helping. there are so many other things obviously wrong causing the response to fail, and the science behind the vaccines sufficiently sound, that questioning the vaccine when you could be directing that energy at the real problems is baffling.

the longer the problem gets drawn out as our governments fuck around, the more successive waves of vaccination and booster shots will become necessary. that's not a flaw in vaccines, that's increasing amounts of vaccination becoming necessary the more we fail at everything else we need to be doing.

I think a really important thing to focus political work on right now is making sure pharmaceutical companies don't get an opportunity to monetize the followup booster shots, because that is absolutely something they want (they've openly said it) and it is absolutely going to ruin any chances of realistically beating this thing.
#1028

shriekingviolet posted:

I think that you're engaging in all or nothing thinking here that isn't really helping.


fair point, but i am doing so because the general response has been all or nothing with vaccinations. so if it continues to mutate and evade (even partially) pre-existing vaccines, then what is the logic of a booster shot that is comprised of what the virus is evading? that is the question i am trying to ask here.

#1029

shriekingviolet posted:

that questioning the vaccine when you could be directing that energy at the real problems is baffling


this is a real problem and has been my principle concern from the outset, which i wrote a few pages ago:

colddays posted:

The worst thing about them I've seen so far is the west using them as an easy way to discriminate against migrants from the rest of the world


#1030
actually i'd rather not get into it. at the end of the day, my logic is:

enhanced fortress nationalism via pandemic-related or any other imperialist measures must be resisted under any circumstances.
#1031
Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated? (Simpson's Paradox)



#1032
COVID has killed more Israelis than the last 50 years of the Palestinian resistance, long live COVID 🇵🇸
#1033
all my direct coworkers are antivaxxers lol
#1034
one thinks they wont get it because they havent already and another thinks its part of a "plan". i didnt inquire.
#1035
would you like to know my opinion on all that? it's death to amerikkka
#1036
[account deactivated]
#1037

liceo posted:

my skepticism of the vaccine


I wonder if one contributor to the temperature could be the rhetorical collapse of the various vaccines out there into a monolith, which I've noticed a few times. It might end up suggesting to readers a broader-brush posture than you actually mean to take.

From context I gather most of talk of "the vaccine" are in reference to the MRNA varieties. Do you have a different set of concerns over the viral vector versions (like J&J, AstraZeneca, or Oxford)? All three of Cuba's (Soberana, Abdala & Mambisa) are protein subunit vaccines, ditto Novavax. Sinopharm is a whole-microbe vaccine. These are all different technologies, pedigrees, production processes. They've all been assembled in a hurry, but I would expect our pre-existing infrastructure would present more challenges to some of these than others. But once it's all just "the vaccine," we've moved away from technical concerns and toward categorical ones that mostly have any lasting power due to a profitable subculture of quack-science enthusiasts.

Edited by Constantignoble ()

#1038

Constantignoble posted:

From context I gather most of talk of "the vaccine" are in reference to the MRNA varieties.



yes and i appreciate you bringing this up. the reason for this is (on my end) because the mRNA varieties are the ones which are glorified (at least in mass media and culture) as super innovative medical technology and i imagine this to be an intended outcome... this also makes me suspicious of the discourse surrounding those types.

i don’t know much about viral vector, but do wish that novavax or sinopharm were available when i got one because it seems to be more reasonable to take just based on my layperson perspective. and no not because China and Cuba use that tech which makes me trust it more.

#1039
the mRNA vaccines are being hyped because it's a new technology that pharmaceutical company ghouls are chomping at the bit to patent and profit off of, not because they're conspiring to make you reenact the last act of Akira. the fundamental principles of the process have been understood in the biological sciences for years now, it just takes time for the logistics of practical development and mass production to catch up.

there's an HIV mRNA vaccine in the final stages of development that looks very promising and it's exciting from a scientific medicine perspective and it's very bleak from a basic human decency perspective because it's not going to be freely available
#1040

shriekingviolet posted:

not because they're conspiring to make you reenact the last act of Akira.


if anyone gets word once this is available though, hit me up, exploding into an impossible mass of chaotic flesh is in my top 5 ways to go