#921
i'm done posting about this now and am not going to respond to any other posts about the pandemic.

i respect you cars but i do not respect how you've been interacting with me itt.
#922
liceo I respect and like you as a person, but the specific post quoted that I was mad about, I don't think was good or really defensible in the context of present material circumstances, ie people putting others lives at risk by refusing the vaccine. the real thrust of my post was that we all need to separate the political maneuverings of bourgeois liberal dipshits from the necessity of a very real and important vaccine, because liberalism loves to be parasitic on necessity, to identify itself with necessity. and it loves to use that equivocation to entrap its opponents into the self destruction of opposing the necessary.

i think the specific post in question that sparked this argument falls into that trap, not because you are a bad person or suck at analysis or whatever, but because the present situation is intolerable for us all, and we're all fucking mad and shooting from the hilt. but I still find its implications unacceptable and if this place is good for anything at all, the rhizzone of my hopes and dreams exists to provide a space where that sincere red hot wrongness can cohere honestly and then be shot down without needless collateral damage. you get me?
#923
e: forget it
#924
i thought the hallmark of this place was the customary ribbing of one poster by another when they say something silly or, indeed, for no reason at all. has covid taken that from us too? find out in my 5000 word medium dot com post about capitalism, public health & the death of laughter
#925

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

i thought the hallmark of this place was the customary ribbing of one poster by another when they say something silly or, indeed, for no reason at all. has covid taken that from us too? find out in my 5000 word medium dot com post about capitalism, public health & the death of laughter


i like to get mad and yell, but i don't like it when someone i respect seems to be actually hurt by it. something something thesis antithesis synthesis.

#926

Parenti posted:

I hate the vaccine passport and think it's bad. There's tons more police out in Paris patrolling, I saw them



you know the black market for vaccine passports is booming right? lot of money in that shit... people in all walks of life and up and down the class composition are ready to fork out three-four hundred euros on getting the pass but not the vaccine. thats when i realized that if its only the old decaying white right wing petit bourgeoisie going to protests its because the non reactionary enlightened masses, under hardship, always finds a way

#927
I refuse to get any vaccine except the Cuban type. It is the best and I can assume that by the time I get access to it, all Cuban people will already have it. I am not going to participate in vaccine imperialism and cut in line ahead of the global south just because I happen to have access to the cheaply made Amerikan one. Trusting Pfizer to make a good vaccine would be like trusting the character from that game QWOP to lead an alpine search and rescue party. I am sure it works fine until the virus mutates a fraction of a micrometer and suddenly you have to pay $10.99 for the patch marketed as DLC. No thank you.
#928
I think the vaccine is good but the virus will continue to replicate and mutate in marginalized populations and that fact along with the global north/south divide will be smoothed over and ignored as is tradition. just the most banal possibility
#929
other platforms and contexts are more suited to engaging in bad faith and hositility around these topics. the encirclement is such that web 1.0 ghettos like here are some of the remaining places to nurture a different dynamic.

if we don't actively cultivate an alternative we inevitabily entrain that very behavior here, eroding our capacity for productive discussion/sharing/reflection.

if posters have varying perspectives/approaches it's possible this is due to different experiences and material circumstances, not necessarily ideological.

the rapid changes and pressures everyone is under are ongoing and asymmetric, so please allow room for differing perspectives as everyone is working through this differently.
#930
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Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#931
please don't spew nonsense about my hurt feelings. i am simply pissed off that the conversation deteriorated and that i was egregiously insulted after my posts were read into, when i kept my head after shapes and cars were berating me and i respectfully responded to the questions and points they explicitly addressed to me.

for the record, cars: i sincerely felt no shame over anything i posted. however, shame does not make people better people and if you truly believe that then you need to check yourself because that's something that a cop or a priest would say and is repulsive coming from you.
#932
One of the fascinating parts about the imperialist core's coronavirus response is that it is a direct continuation of the fortress nationalism environmental policies of the imperialist core. This fortress nationalism basically posits that through superior technology and superior military force, the imperialist core can continue to extract value from the global south and mitigate negative environmental effects. Within climate and environment, this takes a couple forms. Countries are invaded or couped when they introduce environmental protections that can interrupt global value flows, borders are heavily militarized, the domestic security state is militarized to suppress a fifth column from gaining influence, and fake groups are started to divert energy and time into more controllable avenues.

Within the coronavirus response, the imperialist core basically assumed that militaristic lockdown measures until a vaccine would be able to be implemented would suffice to control COVID. Vaccines and any other treatments would be able to be hoarded and supported by the weight of IP laws backed by military force. However, just like with the environment, the effects are very difficult to address as part of a national policy. Additionally, the most effective measures aren't technological, they are organizational. That's why Venezuela, Palestine, China, Cuba, etc have much stronger coronavirus responses, they have long valued community organization as a method of political protection. Within the imperialist core, the most advanced political community organizations are HOAs.

This fortress nationalism is one of the really interesting contradictions and grows out of Torkil's identification of the main contradictions today:

Capital and nature, expressing itself through pandemics and climate catastrophe
National rivalries (us vs china, us vs europe, etc)
Transnational capital and nationalism expressing itself as neoliberal crises
The contradiction between production and consumption

This fortress nationalism aims to resolve all of these contradictions by trying to maintain international value transfers internationally, nationalism at home, encouraging the continued overconsumption of the imperialist core at the expense of the global south to keep value flows going, and controlling climate through top-down militaristic policies. Where this really falls apart is on the contradiction between capital and nature, and this is one of the faultlines that communists should organize on but have completely failed to do so.

Part of the reason that it hasn't been organized around is that taken to logical conclusions, any communist environmental practice necessitates a radical lowering of the quality of life of the first world as quality of life is currently understood within the imperialist core.
#933

liceo posted:

trying to talk about how cures have not been an aspect of this


cures don't seem to be as big of a priority with virii in general; with most common viral infections, since antibiotics don't work, standard treatment falls to making symptoms more bearable until the immune system can tough it out -- sort of a microcosm of the right-wing societal approach to the pandemic. i'm not deeply learned in these matters, but from what little i've gleaned, antivirals are a wildly different sort of thing than antibiotics, where each agent identified as effective against a virus can't be counted on to work for any other virus, given the differences of behavior. straightaway one should be able to tell from this that antivirals are not a profitable investment, which maybe creates a way to connect in our minds the insane cries for laissez-faire during a pandemic with the conventional advice to Just Have Some Chicken Soup For A Few Days & Get Well Soon, something something ideology pervasive and subtle

anyway, given this starting point, i don't think it's much of a surprise that cures are not well emphasized. hell, it would not surprise me if many people think they're not even possible on the basis of some permutation of conventional wisdom.

anyway, i hope you are correct liceo that maybe one has been identified in this case, though i gather from shapes bringing up the chemical in question before you named it outright that maybe it's already a bit of a goiter in the Discourse. i'd be curious to hear if the contrary take is also marshaling studies or if some anti-vaxxer poisoned himself on it or what.

#934
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Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#935
yes, petrol, you're right. i am looking for a perfect daddy to get me to the top 0.003% of onlyfans creators. that's why i'm so pissed off right now.
#936
i'm trying to make light of a bad situation here petrol
#937
pokemon go to hell
#938

dizastar posted:

Parenti posted:

I hate the vaccine passport and think it's bad. There's tons more police out in Paris patrolling, I saw them

you know the black market for vaccine passports is booming right? lot of money in that shit... people in all walks of life and up and down the class composition are ready to fork out three-four hundred euros on getting the pass but not the vaccine. thats when i realized that if its only the old decaying white right wing petit bourgeoisie going to protests its because the non reactionary enlightened masses, under hardship, always finds a way



let's start a small business diz

#939
It has been very "cringe" to scroll through this thread in the club while making out with hotties
#940

pogfan1996 posted:

Part of the reason that it hasn't been organized around is that taken to logical conclusions, any communist environmental practice necessitates a radical lowering of the quality of life of the first world as quality of life is currently understood within the imperialist core.



congratulations on discovering the most revolutionary claim hitherto pronounced. let me know when you liberate the working class with this idea.

#941
"as quality of life is currently understood" is the sort of qualification that in any other venue would probably be a placeholder for an excruciatingly long discussion but is nevertheless fine to say here, where everyone is more or less on the same page

why no i haven't read the rest of this thread, why do you ask
#942

Acdtrux posted:

pogfan1996 posted:

Part of the reason that it hasn't been organized around is that taken to logical conclusions, any communist environmental practice necessitates a radical lowering of the quality of life of the first world as quality of life is currently understood within the imperialist core.

congratulations on discovering the most revolutionary claim hitherto pronounced. let me know when you liberate the working class with this idea.



I guess it depends on which working class that communism is for, is it for the first world working class or is it for the bottom 80%?

#943

pogfan1996 posted:

Acdtrux posted:

pogfan1996 posted:

Part of the reason that it hasn't been organized around is that taken to logical conclusions, any communist environmental practice necessitates a radical lowering of the quality of life of the first world as quality of life is currently understood within the imperialist core.

congratulations on discovering the most revolutionary claim hitherto pronounced. let me know when you liberate the working class with this idea.

I guess it depends on which working class that communism is for, is it for the first world working class or is it for the bottom 80%?



I can't think of any situation where building socialism is a bad idea so I don't understand your intentions with this comment.

#944
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Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#945

pogfan1996 posted:

the imperialist core basically assumed that militaristic lockdown measures until a vaccine would be able to be implemented would suffice to control COVID.



still important to realize though that this doesn't apply in the domestic United States. there simply were no "militaristic lockdown measures" enforced while waiting for a vaccine in most parts of the country, not anywhere other than certain parts of a minority of urban areas, certainly not in most major cities even. I have seen attempts to reimagine the U.S. domestic response this way through rhetorical gymnastics and it just never works. I think critics of the U.S. and its very real police state need to engage with this fact productively and directly, so I will probably keep bringing it up.

#946

cars posted:

pogfan1996 posted:

the imperialist core basically assumed that militaristic lockdown measures until a vaccine would be able to be implemented would suffice to control COVID.

still important to realize though that this doesn't apply in the domestic United States. there simply were no "militaristic lockdown measures" enforced while waiting for a vaccine in most parts of the country, not anywhere other than certain parts of a minority of urban areas, certainly not in most major cities even. I have seen attempts to reimagine the U.S. domestic response this way through rhetorical gymnastics and it just never works. I think critics of the U.S. and its very real police state need to engage with this fact productively and directly, so I will probably keep bringing it up.



yeah, i was more thinking about france's racist harassment when writing it. generalizing that to the imperialist core wasn't correct

#947
[account deactivated]
#948

toyot posted:

but i'm sure every marxist here's earned the vigor of their arguments



Finally a rhizzone-tier burn in this thread

#949

pogfan1996 posted:

yeah, i was more thinking about france's racist harassment when writing it.



cool gotcha. and yeah again like... i don't want to dissuade that sort of talk in that context, i WANT to hear about what's happening in e.g. France.

in part it's because it seems like that stuff, what's happening in France, in Taiwan, even in the UK which has had a path relatively more similar to the U.S., etc., will have a lot to say if there's a change in position in the U.S.

Because the current bourgeois party in charge of the U.S. executive branch, the people at least ostensibly in charge of the fed-cops (outside of the extralegal security/intelligence-agent "community" with its own bourgeois constituency) has depended on this maintain-the-margin strategy to hang on and not lose their power. And that strategy says, let shit get bad because if 2016 and 2020 demonstrate that if we piss off 1% of the people that voted for us last time by making their lives inconvenient over COVID, we're fucked. Right now it doesn't look like they're going to depart from that.

But if the people who back Democrat campaigns say:

This needs to be taken care of... This will hurt productivity if it keeps up like this... and the worst part of that is how unhappy we'll be as your patrons... You know, we've been talking with people on the other side about strategies to cast new COVID measures as keeping the scary blacks and Chinese in line, and you know the Trump voters just wait around to be told what to believe, that's what you told us and we totally believe you... and at heart they love cops and the military and will 180 on all of this if it looks like they'll get to see some skulls stomped for white power... and that strategy might take a while but we'd need to get started right now on our end..... Your window here is closing.......

If the Democrats then shift to a strategy that relies on greater influence by fewer constituencies, and if they can find people in the fed-cops amenable to that shiftβ€”and I think they absolutely can, I think most of the "intelligence community" and certainly the FBI are ready to hard-push the Democrats that way, in factβ€”well then... There has been rapid normalization in the U.S. media and among the Democrats' voting blocs of the idea of the FBI and CIA and friends directly intervening in policy well beyond their supposed expertise, thanks to their successful re-casting of themselves as the brave anti-Trump pro-democracy team. I mean, the federal pigs have been tasked, at their own request, with closing out a global epidemiological investigation in 90 days over this very issue, which is batshit. The people backing it actually, literally, no-fooling went out to give interviews, to blast out through their Twitter accounts, the message, We don't need doctors and scientists on this, they came to the wrong conclusions already, we need to make sure the CIA is in charge of it this time. And normalizing that sort of stuff is not some novel development in the U.S., but that specific instance of it is recent and they will build from what's recent and what worked recently.

So if for whatever reason (such as continual or increased "labor" problems) the sector of the bourgeoisie backing the Democrats uses its campaign-finance leverage to push for a major about-face on COVID policy, for the Democrats suddenly doing a bunch of the stuff with executive orders that the White House is currently saying they can't do because "It's illegal!"... and if the enforcers, who now are allowed to straight up tell the Times and Post that they're the ones setting policy, agree with that and promote going as far as they can with it, as they almost certainly will... they are probably going to start looking at models where they can enforce behavior and maintain votes by selling the idea, hard, in the press that these models have worked elsewhere and will cure the dysfunction of the United States.

If that happens, the White House and the top cops are going to lean on the vague Europhilia of many college-educated, likely-voter Democrats, and of fashionable Democrat celebrity pseudo-socialists. They'll say, Let's do this like France, let's do this like (insert Scandinavian country with the most militarized response at the time they make the announcement), let's fill the streets with cops or soldiers, especially those particular streets full of filthy plebs who can't be trusted because they're not reading the news stories where we're quoted saying so. And they are going to lean on Democrat CNN-stoked Sinophobia and Republican Fox-stoked Sinophobia, and say, We can do this the Taiwan techno-surveillance digital fence way, the good upright democratic way with Techs and Apps... or the Red Chinese way that will be a totalitarian nightmare and also won't work because the Commies are secretly all dead and pretending to be alive, and plus, Commie ray guns are what make people sick in the first place. Those "allies" and client states are likely to be their models for any newly aggressive cop-ism, adapted into what they'll simultaneously pitch as a unique and superior "American" model taking advantage of the media's continued absurd presentation of the intellectual superiority of U.S. doctors and public health officers.

So it is a pretty good idea to see the results of policy in different parts of the world for a lot of reasons, especially in the imperial core and its direct clients. This part, U.S. domestic policy's possible future, is admittedly a relatively minor reason why at the moment. But, given the U.S. military and "intelligence community", it's going to become a question of global importance very quickly if that domestic policy is used as a means of highly state-policed xenophobic fascism in the streets with corresponding avenues of imperialist foreign policy. Again, that’s not because it will make the U.S. "more" imperialist somehow, but because it will inform the specific paths of imperialist aggression that result. And what I'm saying is, if that shift in COVID policy happens in the U.S., it will almost certainly happen that exact way.

No one, certainly no one in the White House, really thinks this is some matter of rule of law binding their hands, that the Washington-governed police state somehow CAN'T change course. And if they do, the copsβ€”the alphabet-style top cops, the state cops, all the way down to the local traffic stop copβ€”will take EXTREME advantage of it IMMEDIATELY once it's clear to everyone that's just how things are gonna be. The people distributing funds will make sure of it Because look at where COVID money has gone already, those big block grants: it's been like 50% or more to local cop departments, and most of them have been using it to gear up for a repeat of summer of 2020 instead of enforcing any sort of COVID measures. Now imagine if "COVID funds = cop funds" became a patriotic tautology in the U.S. news press instead of a juicy shock story... if all that cash was topped up all over again, so that the cops who are currently paranoid-rightist conspiracy theorists were offered the necessary big-time incentive$$$ to change their minds...

#950

toyot posted:

spent too many years in pharma writing CCRs and CAPAs to the FDA to ever get a non-cGMP, non-approved vaccine. not a very popular opinion, but i'm sure every marxist here's earned the vigor of their arguments. i was API engineer on two cGMP plants, and participated in an emergency team where cGMP was effectively suspended during engineering runs for a new drug. i have a good sense of the range of ways to run a plant, know the regulations pretty well, so i know what was sacrificed rushing these out for national prestige, and i'm not putting it in my body. fun fact, it was the same plant that, pre-cGMP, infected 200000 people with live polio in a way preventable by the exact regulations suspended for these vaxes. so i'll wait for approval like i do every other drug. good luck with your life decisions everyone.



imo this is a lot of words to say "I don't have any proof that the vaccine is bad, and I certainly have no argument that vaccination is better than the unchecked spread of the disease itself, but I will try to convince people that they should listen to me and do what I do regardless."

I respect your experience but that doesn't make the argument look any better when you have literally no evidence to offer. Again i encourage people to like... ask most Cubans what they think about this idea, that it's scientific to resist vaccination. I guarantee you the response will not even be a nationalist fervor for their own vaccines over others. If it were, they would have lacked what they needed within their society to develop those vaccines. At heart this is not a "life decisions" question, because that is liberalism. It is socialist to get vaccinated and it is anti-socialist not to.

#951
i mean......... this is actually a gigantic global emergency that does not respect the politics of those afflicted. This shit is not fictional and the emergency response proposed is not Bomb Iran, it is not some hoodwink by the United States. Every country with the necessary medical research system is pushing vaccines through as quickly as they can to make them available. And getting vaccinated is absolutely the smart and correct thing to do in nearly every case.
#952
[account deactivated]
#953
so you don't have any evidence then, it just "wouldn't surprise you". I don't really have to explain how little regard i have for that.
#954
dude i have consulted on plenty of biomed projects. I am well familiar with the outlook of, "I know your field better than you do, I'm an engineer who bumped into it once," from my colleagues, and that it would chase me to this site of all places, i sure as hell did not ever predict that.
#955
[account deactivated]
#956
this "trust my vague acronymic portents of doom over and above Cuban immunologists" shit is full on Red Kahina behavior and it's genuinely disgusting to me. This is not a dilettante posting game, if literally one person on this forum doesn't get vaccinated because they believe your hand-wavy bullshit that is moral evil at work, whether you intend it that way or not. It could literally kill them or one of their friends or family members. And I want to give you enough credit for me to believe that you know how much more likely that is to happen because they didn't get vaccinated than it is to happen because they did.
#957
post your evidence that the vaccine is deadlier than the virus or shut up forever on this topic dude.
#958

swampman posted:

I refuse to get any vaccine except the Cuban type. It is the best and I can assume that by the time I get access to it, all Cuban people will already have it. I am not going to participate in vaccine imperialism and cut in line ahead of the global south just because I happen to have access to the cheaply made Amerikan one. Trusting Pfizer to make a good vaccine would be like trusting the character from that game QWOP to lead an alpine search and rescue party. I am sure it works fine until the virus mutates a fraction of a micrometer and suddenly you have to pay $10.99 for the patch marketed as DLC. No thank you.


#959
[account deactivated]
#960
so are you going to take sinopharm or what