#1081
my guess would be that the discussion hasn't progressed very seriously as a result of how it fell apart into pettiness over the last handful of pages and how that continues. for example, saying things like:

cars posted:

terminal kkkracker engineer brain


isn't getting anyone anywhere and actually makes the critique worthless and impossible. maybe i'm reading too much into it but that type of juvenile reactionary bullshit (which it absolutely is) is what kinch was referring to as being embarrassing, especially in conjunction with laughing off mass death and enhanced surveillance simply because it's killing amerikans.

the fact is that mass death and enhanced surveillance are not a result and catch-up of an incompetent government response but instead has been the plan from the outset in order to bolster imperialism internationally.

#1082
in other news, going back to what i brought up at the beginning of social policing, here is an anecdotal example of that:

now where i live, one needs either a vaccine or proof of recovery to do basically anything and it is enforced strongly. the reason it is strictly enforced is because service industry employees are individually and legally responsible and subject to fine if they get caught not checking. so they have to police for the police or will be punished fairly severely (5-10k euro). anyway, i tried to go to a beer garden last weekend and needed to show my info to get in and also had to check in for "contact tracing". i don't have a smartphone and so i don't have the QR code nonsense tech that is the standard. this means that i have to write my info with pen and paper and then give it to the employee, which is then cross-checked with my residence permit, which has a lot of sensitive information on it beyond my contact details. i was ridiculed by the employee for not having a smart phone or QR code and she took my official WHO double-stamped vaccine passport and had to have her manager inspect it for authenticity, who then also started yelling at me for not having a phone. in the end, they said that they couldn't verify it without a smartphone and so i wasn't allowed to sit on a bench outside and drink a beer with my friend, all because of refusing to participate in smartphone technology. the whole thing took about 30 minutes.

i'm not sour about not getting a beer at a bar and that's not why i bring it up. i bring it up to demonstrate how this is already tacitly forcing people to use tech that they don't want to use and in very little time it will be explicitly forced. and, just like the i$raeli minister said, this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic whatsoever. it is a form of social policing that directly benefits imperialist superstructure and surveillance capitalism.

also the app that gets used here is from a shady private company who lobbied the politicians for it over the one that the RKI developed. it has already been hacked with personal details (location history, check-in history, ID information, etc.) leaked multiple times in about five weeks. my point is that nobody should be forced to use these technologies, especially for such banal activities like getting a beer outside.
#1083

liceo posted:

the fact is that mass death and enhanced surveillance are not a result and catch-up of an incompetent government response but instead has been the plan from the outset in order to bolster imperialism internationally.


as far as i knew we were all on the same page about this from the outset.

as far as any unpleasantness goes, i reject the notion that a lack of politeness from some or any posters absolves anyone else of the need to argue their case in a principled way. i, for example, do not have to defer to toyot's unsupported assertions just because cars has been rude to them.

and finally, to be crystal clear, all the stuff about smartphone apps and vaccine certificates and whatnot, that's a perfectly good topic for discussion, but let's not conflate all that with the topic of the vaccines themselves.

#1084

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

and finally, to be crystal clear, all the stuff about smartphone apps and vaccine certificates and whatnot, that's a perfectly good topic for discussion, but let's not conflate all that with the topic of the vaccines themselves.


they are related and inform one another but i do agree with you that it is important to separate them temporarily to understand their individual function in order to understand them as a combined phenomenon.

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

as far as any unpleasantness goes, i reject the notion that a lack of politeness from some or any posters absolves anyone else of the need to argue their case in a principled way. i, for example, do not have to defer to toyot's unsupported assertions just because cars has been rude to them.


makes sense. to put my point more basically though: if someone is being flippant and reactionary, then i am unlikely to continue the conversation, even if that means that the rest of the people involved aren't. then again, maybe that says i'm a huge fat baby

#1085

liceo posted:

is what kinch was referring to as being embarrassing


it's not obvious to me that that's per se what was troubling kinch; we should let kinch speak for kinch IMO

to be clear i have GRAVE PERSONAL STAKES in this question, because kinch is now responsible for half of my lifetime downvotes!!

Edited by Constantignoble ()

#1086
i want to downvote for posterity to make up for the half but i love you and could never bring myself to do it, even nominally
#1087
#1088
you just don't get it here, this is a thread... to discuss... how awesome the virus is at killing amerikkkans




HOO HOOOOO

#1089
LET ME BE THE FIRST TO SPEAK FOR KINCH IN THAT THEY DONT KNOW WTF THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT
#1090

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

liceo posted:


the fact is that mass death and enhanced surveillance are not a result and catch-up of an incompetent government response but instead has been the plan from the outset in order to bolster imperialism internationally.


as far as i knew we were all on the same page about this from the outset.




I'm not on the same page here, unless I'm misunderstanding the position. Yes, the capitalist state is opportunistically using the pandemic to do a lot of different things, but "from the outset" and some of the previous posting in here makes it seem like they've engineered the pandemic. The logical conclusion of this line of thought is to claim that the virus was man-made and purposely spread by the usa, which is contrary to the evidence and conclusions of multi-national teams of scientists investigating its origin, as I understand them.

They didn't spend a decade building internet infrastructure, social media surveillance platforms, etc. just in case there was a random mutation of a gene in a zootropic virus or any kind of similar random calamity. The systems were built as the natural development of communications technology applied to all the spheres of life, mainly commerce and social control. They happened to be well suited to accommodate a pandemic and their growth accelerated as necessary in the situation, but that acceleration was not in a pre-planned, worked out direction. The changes we're seeing are based on the internal characteristics of the society but the pandemic is the external force which drives their dialectical development. That external force could have been something totally different, creating a different change in the society.

The pandemic being so convenient for the growth of technological surveillance and control seems too perfect to be coincidental, but if something else had happened giving the capitalist state some other kind of opportunity, it also would have seemed that way because that's just what would have happened. Every outcome seems like the only possible outcome after the fact.

I mentioned solar flares previously, because that's another catastrophic unpredictable event, but they would seriously set back technological surveillance and communication. Even so, the capitalist state would adapt to it and suddenly it would seem like they had been planning to take these tools away from us all along. Nevermind the thousands that died right in the belly of the beast as a result, the severe logistical disruptions, etc. because despite all that they would still come out on top just as they did in the pandemic. The dominant classes taking advantage of disturbances to strengthen their rule while the oppressed classes are crushed more rigorously than before is just a property of capitalism, not evidence for the bourgeoisie having infinite foresight and planning.

#1091
Not posting this as a direct response, but this reminded me of a quote from Max Ajl's People's Green New Deal:

Those who argue in an absolute way for technology’s categorical social neutrality, especially from the left, forge one of the most dangerous, subtle, and effective instruments of ideological counterinsurgency: they accept the myth of progress and confuse opposition to the capitalist agenda. They suggest that every technology is exactly the same as the knife, the Kalashnikov repurposed by anti-colonial militia, or the printing press.2 They argue that the new engines, machine tools, and social media sites are not welded onto the hands of the ruling class. And this is dangerous, because capitalists do not choose technology willy-nilly, but in order to maximize power, as has been shown time and again by critical historians of technology. Former MIT historian David Noble proved machine tools were designed to deskill workers and concentrate power. Such deadly melees do not occur just on one shop floor or industry. Each technological edifice exists within a world-system of uneven accumulation. British textile production, access to cotton and wool, and markets for cloth and clothing, for example, were never merely a parochial British question. As the Indian economic historian Amiya Kumar Bagchi points out, cloth-making wove together social threads spanning the British slave trade, the underdevelopment of Africa, the deindustrialization of India, southern US cotton production, and British industrialization, into one piece of capitalist fabric. Coal-fueled industrial take-off in Victorian Britain was one side of a coin whose genocidal reverse-face was Britain’s late Victorian holocausts.
#1092
.
#1093
It's a good point to keep in mind but I'm not arguing that these technologies aren't welded to the hands of the bourgeoisie but that the technologies which were chosen for development and the strategies for their uses were designed well before the pandemic and without any special event like this as a precondition for their roll out.
#1094

colddays posted:

I'm not on the same page here, unless I'm misunderstanding the position. Yes, the capitalist state is opportunistically using the pandemic to do a lot of different things, but "from the outset" and some of the previous posting in here makes it seem like they've engineered the pandemic.


I was really just referring to the sentiment that capitalist governments, especially the US, have been quite happy to let this thing kill a lot of people. There have definitely been many aspects of the covid response which bear that out. But no, not that they engineered the pandemic.

#1095

liceo posted:

the fact is that mass death and enhanced surveillance are not a result and catch-up of an incompetent government response but instead has been the plan from the outset in order to bolster imperialism internationally.



cannot disagree with this more. the pandemic has been an unmitigated disaster for the NATO gang, and doubly so for the US.

the global capitalist economy has been held together by Elmer's glue and balsa wood since the 2009 crisis. the Federal Reserve has had virtually negative interest rates for over a decade, practically begging corporations "please, take our money" and they still sit on cash reserves instead of investing it because The Rate of Profit Continues to Fall. and the last crisis lead to OWS, to Bernie Sanders coming close to winning the nomination. Real communists may laugh at obvious socdem sheepdogging, but the bourgeois is definitely not laughing, they're scared, and the fact that they have not even thrown the burgeoning left a bone like student loan relief only shows how precarious the situation is.

now you have a pandemic that nobody saw coming, that disrupted supply chains the world over, that saw millions of consumers stay home for months, millions more lose their jobs, entire industries shut down overnight. if the capitalist economy were in a boom period, maybe it would be different, but oh boy. the tipping point of the last crisis was the housing bubble bursting, which caused a downstream meltdown in the credit derivative swap market, a speculative commodity so opaque that many financial professionals would struggle to explain it. it's almost impossible to imagine there not being shockwaves from this pandemic that lead to their own crises. the ruling class was so scared that a Republican Party that controlled all 3 branches of government frantically voted to massively expand unemployment benefits -- absolutely unthinkable even just months earlier -- just in an attempt to prevent it all from crashing down.

and imperialism isn't doing much better! it is arguable that NATO imperialism has not had a clear, unmitigated victory since Libya. Assad is still running Syria, Venezuela is holding on, it looked like they had Bolivia for a minute but was quickly reversed, Russia embarrassed them by grabbing Crimea and daring them to do something about it, Iran made it painfully clear that they could turn the gulf states into a giant salt field if it came down to it, and now Afghanistan fell in about 5 minutes. the United $nakes cannot project power like it used to. the ruling class is terrified of China, unilaterally agrees that it's their greatest threat. but you can tell that crisis is creeping in, because they no longer agree _how_ to deal with that threat anymore. do they keep NATO together, and get all the rogue states in line, like they've been trying to do since the fall of the USSR? or do they say "to hell with NATO" and seek out an alliance with Russia as a way to contain China (the Bannon/Trump plan)?

so yes, imperialism is not doing so hot lately either. and you know what does not help them? 600K+ people dying, the economy going belly up, the most powerful country in the world stepping on every rake in the driveway. not when China has 4x the population and a fraction of the deaths, their economy barely skips a beat, and still supply vaccines to a huge chunk of the third world. meanwhile, US Congress cannot get out of their own way long enough to pass an infrastructure bill to spend over ten years on what China spends in 1.

people here are rightfully skeptical that AmeriKKKa is vaccinating citizens out of the goodness of their hearts. and you are correct. they are pushing people to get vaccinated because, in a country where 4000 people are dying DAILY, from a disease that can be spread through the air, everyone is terrified to go outside and consume, spend money, or generally keep the wheels of the capitalist system spinning. we saw this back in the winter, when many states didn't go back into lockdown in the face of rising cases, but economic activity still ground to a half. you don't have to go the University of Chicago Milton Friedman School of Economics to realize that many of the rational actors that make up our free market are not going to risk eating at Denny's when a 9/11's worth of deaths are happening every single day. the marginal utility of the Grand Slam Breakfast is just not worth drowning in your own lung's virus ridden fluids

the plan from the outset? they still don't have a plan! from the beginning, the federal government has punted all responsibility to the states. 50 different responses and approaches -- everyone from the rotund Pritzker fortune heir of Illinois to My Nepotistic Paranoid Cousin Vinny of NY to Wannabe Bautista Gusanos of Florida to Death KKKult Armageddon of the Lt. Governor of Texas. NY is requiring proof of vaccination for all indoor dining. Texas, on the other hand, passes a law *explicitly banning* any sort of vaccine passport. the Florida state government is filing lawsuits against its own counties who mandate masks for children in public schools. there is absolutely no plan, they are wining it every step of the way, entirely reactionary decision making. and if the vaccines hadn't arrived, the US would be looking at 1MM+ deaths and the complete collapse of its healthcare system.

are they trying to come up with a plan so that these turn of events benefit imperialism and increase surveillance? i'm sure they are. one time in 6th grade, i left the gym locker room and forgot to put on pants. i, too, realized i needed a plan to get back sight unseen. this does not mean that was my ORIGINAL plan, nor does the creation of a new plan mean that the initial incidence was not a disaster, far outweighing whatever meager benefits i derive from the new plan.

what, exactly, are the new benefits they get from it they don't already have? increased surveillance, for a country where every email, phone call, and most internet traffic is already intercepted by the NSA? if you think the bourgeois will trade people carrying around a little white card for the virtual collapse of the commercial real estate market, then buddy...

the two biggest reasons you know the vaccines are effective are that the ruling class was lining up to get them when they first came out (my spouse works at a hospital in NYC, and the rich were making calls to see if they could trade donations to cut the line) and that the US refused to export any vaccines, hoarding them all for their citizens, until they realized that 50% would rather go to the Great Respirator In the Sky than get the Judeo-Bolshevik microchip vaccine, and huge chunks of them were going rancid in fridges across the country

#1096
who cares about surveillance lol. I care about workers and stuff like, neo nazis and landlords, and also class conflict
#1097

colddays posted:

"from the outset" and some of the previous posting in here makes it seem like they've engineered the pandemic. The logical conclusion of this line of thought is to claim that the virus was man-made and purposely spread by the usa, which is contrary to the evidence and conclusions of multi-national teams of scientists investigating its origin, as I understand them.


you are extrapolating far too much from my writing. i never claimed, even tacitly, that the pandemic was engineered. and no, the logical conclusion of my posts is not that the virus was man-made and purposely spread. let me clearly spell out my premises:

1. capitalist economy has been in crisis for over a decade and was going to worsen with or without a pandemic
2. the pandemic occurred and quickly showed that people were not going to be able to participate in the economy (from working to consuming), at least not as what had been the status quo
3. hegemonic governments utilized the actually frightening reality of the pandemic to foster this fear and reposition the framework of the already collapsing economy to be, at least to the general public, a result of the pandemic
4. in an attempt to reify this, those governments allowed the pandemic to rage which did two things:
5.1 left loads of people dead or scarred by what is for some a horrible illness
5.2 prevented people from consuming as usual and framed it as a major subjective sacrifice in order to make people desire what was the (consumerist) status quo. the reason for this was to try and establish a v-shaped economic recovery, so that capitalism appeared to be as strong as ever
6. for that to happen, the hegemonic governments relied solely on the production of a set of vaccines and mass rollout of those vaccines, so that once people started feeling more secure, they would start spending and working again
7. in turn, this recovery would make people even more dependent on imperialism than they already were and would also make the imperialist governments appear more benevolent to the general public because they gave them a temporary solution after letting their counterparts die
8. this calculated plan and response also diminishes the quality of life in the imperialist core, which is very beneficial for core nations because it means that they are even less on the hook for maintaining the image of equilibrium and further subjectivizes capitalist crises. i.e., if you get covid now in amerika (even if you did get a jab) then you no longer get unemployment benefits because the government gave you the one solution they used. now it's on you, just like at-will employment, medical debt, and every other facet of capitalist-imperialism which makes life pure hell. the difference with the pandemic is that if you didn't get the jab, then everyone can point their finger at you and say: it's your fault you fucking idiot. you had your chance. either way, people are on the line and so long as they are, then this simply reifies crude individualism and capitalist survivalism.

so, at least from these premises, the conclusion that i've come to is this:
that the pandemic has been used to (1) foster reliance on capitalist superstructures, (2) further naturalize real social crises as individualized responsibilities, shortcomings, or misfortune, (3) reify the appearance of the strength of capitalist economics, (4) generate superprofits for a select group of pharmaceutical companies, and (5) to attempt to hide an already-failing system with a natural medical crisis.

now shapes: you say a lot of words without ever really saying anything at all.

shapes posted:

to Bernie Sanders coming close to winning the nomination


this is not desirable nor revolutionary, so i have no idea why you would bring it up.

shapes posted:

but the bourgeois is definitely not laughing, they're scared, and the fact that they have not even thrown the burgeoning left a bone like student loan relief only shows how precarious the situation is.


how do you know? give some clear examples where the bourgeois is not laughing because last i checked, the bourgeois is getting rich as hell off of the pandemic. the failure to provide student loan relief, and every other deliberate economic decision the u$ has made, strengthens the bourgeois.

shapes posted:

just in an attempt to prevent it all from crashing down.


i disagree. the unemployment insurance was widened for two reasons: (1) to make the government appear benevolent during a real crisis and (2) to prevent a lot of people from going out into the streets and tearing things apart. this is exactly the outcome that happened. now you have loads of people who make up the internal-periphery who think that trump was a good president because he gave them more money than anyone else ever did. this would have been no different if it were biden or obama or bush. we all know that the prez is a shitting figure head. the point was to make people more dependent on a purely evil system and it worked.

shapes posted:

and imperialism isn't doing much better!


this has extremely little if nothing to do with the pandemic and has been a trend for over two decades. perhaps the pandemic didn't help but it is at most a weak correlate and not causal in any capacity.

shapes posted:

rational actors that make up our free market are not going to risk eating at Denny's when a 9/11's worth of deaths are happening every single day.


this is also not true. the ruling classes have been largely exempt from any of the negative social-consumer benefits of the pandemic. they have enjoyed basically the same lifestyles as they had beforehand because they are already largely separated from the general public and the things that the general public do.

shapes posted:

and if the vaccines hadn't arrived, the US would be looking at 1MM+ deaths and the complete collapse of its healthcare system.


what i am going to say here has nothing to do with vaccine effectiveness: what you wrote is going to happen with or without any or all of the vaccines because it is a facet of capitalism that cannot sustain itself, which is why euro-counterpart governments have not maintained that model. the collapse of the medical system is a time bomb and has been crumbling for decades. and we will see 1m+ deaths probably before february if things continue as they are now.

shapes posted:

the plan from the outset? they still don't have a plan! from the beginning, the federal government has punted all responsibility to the states.


this is also not true. i have my own points about the plan above. if you think that the federal government making states responsible wasn't a calculated decision, then you need to reevaluate that.

shapes posted:

if you think the bourgeois will trade people carrying around a little white card for the virtual collapse of the commercial real estate market, then buddy...


this doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with anything i've ever posted. discussing social policing and invasive tech is a different discussion.

shapes posted:

he two biggest reasons you know the vaccines are effective


you are really obsessed with this, aren't you? i explicitly said in multiple posts that talking about the effectiveness of any of the vaccines is not a productive conversation because while they are helping people, there are still objective unknowns. however, talking about their production, use, distribution (throughout the world), and their social impact is beneficial because it is already tangible and able to be analyzed.

that's all i got. like i said a few posts ago, post with either speculation or real material data. i post my premises as a speculative analysis and have always remained in the speculative position because there remains much to be seen with this crisis and the crisis of capitalism.

that said, it is above and beyond the most important and most critical line to maintain that hegemony always has plans, that they exploit any and every phenomena they can for their benefit, and that they are not, in any capacity, incompetent at exploitation.

Acdtrux posted:

who cares about surveillance lol. I care about workers and stuff like, neo nazis and landlords, and also class conflict


if you care about the latter, you have to care about the former.

Edited by liceo ()

#1098

Acdtrux posted:

who cares about surveillance lol. I care about workers and stuff like, neo nazis and landlords, and also class conflict


what if surveillance could be used by the state to keep an eye on potential sources of class conflict.. just something to think about

#1099

Acdtrux posted:

who cares about surveillance lol. I care about workers and stuff like, neo nazis and landlords, and also class conflict



this post brought to you by the DSA

#1100
i think they're saying who cares about the surveillance cost in the face of a worldwide pandemic, as in, who care's about the vaccination threat in the face of a worldwide pandemic. but dont let me put words in yr mouth like i'm willing to do to kinch.

#1101
i'm with kinch. this thread is a failure to actually frame a simple debate and all of us look stupid.
#1102
.

Edited by liceo ()

#1103
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Edited by liceo ()

#1104

karphead posted:

who cares about the surveillance cost in the face of a worldwide pandemic



Communists

#1105
Doesn't the US have the advantage that it can almost endlessly print money while the rest of the world can't? Only a handful of countries have actually been successful in containing the virus (for now, who knows with Delta) and not all of them necessarily gained an advantage from it. Countries like DPRK or Vietnam could be pushed into concessions if things get worse. This applies even more so with countries on the fence. Not to discount that things looks bad for the US, but I don't think the outcome is decided yet.
#1106

marimite posted:

Doesn't the US have the advantage that it can almost endlessly print money while the rest of the world can't? Only a handful of countries have actually been successful in containing the virus (for now, who knows with Delta) and not all of them necessarily gained an advantage from it. Countries like DPRK or Vietnam could be pushed into concessions if things get worse. This applies even more so with countries on the fence. Not to discount that things looks bad for the US, but I don't think the outcome is decided yet.


this is a good point that i was circling around without coming to directly. yes, and there are ample historical instances of the U$ doing so, especially at the expense of the periphery. the U$ treasury is also happy to keep doing so because they don't care about the general public but a few select golden members of the ruling class who would not really be affected by it.

#1107
we always have the option of locating the physical rhizzone servers and hurling them into an active volcano
#1108
too bad i'm developing a rhizzone cryptocoin so that our shitposting and bickering will be permanently enshrined on the blockchain
#1109


lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
#1110
I want to make it clear ahead of time that i am not in FAVOR of how, nor do i even like how, those who disagree with me on this forum are going to die of a disease they could have kept themselves from getting, in part because some of them may have children whomst shall never get to post even once.
#1111
that's the way to better discussion!
#1112

cars posted:

lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll


dr malone was quoted as saying that rna vaccines are 'epoch fail'

#1113

cars posted:

I want to make it clear ahead of time that i am not in FAVOR of how, nor do i even like how, those who disagree with me on this forum are going to die of a disease they could have kept themselves from getting, in part because some of them may have children whomst shall never get to post even once.



#1114

liceo posted:

now where i live, one needs either a vaccine or proof of recovery to do basically anything and it is enforced strongly. the reason it is strictly enforced is because service industry employees are individually and legally responsible and subject to fine if they get caught not checking. so they have to police for the police or will be punished fairly severely (5-10k euro). anyway, i tried to go to a beer garden last weekend and needed to show my info to get in and also had to check in for "contact tracing". i don't have a smartphone and so i don't have the QR code nonsense tech that is the standard. this means that i have to write my info with pen and paper and then give it to the employee, which is then cross-checked with my residence permit, which has a lot of sensitive information on it beyond my contact details. i was ridiculed by the employee for not having a smart phone or QR code and she took my official WHO double-stamped vaccine passport and had to have her manager inspect it for authenticity, who then also started yelling at me for not having a phone. in the end, they said that they couldn't verify it without a smartphone and so i wasn't allowed to sit on a bench outside and drink a beer with my friend, all because of refusing to participate in smartphone technology. the whole thing took about 30 minutes.



george costanza moment

#1115
loling at the thought of an amerikan expat walking up to one of those wooden bench wooden table cramped permanent background noise overpriced shaytan juice place and getting absolutely murked by a neek waitress and the entire personnel for not having a smartphone

Edited by STUNNABOY ()

#1116
it’s kinda weird seeing gay used as an insult, it’s like watching an old tv show and there’s the twin towers in the background
#1117

liceo posted:

shapes posted:

he two biggest reasons you know the vaccines are effective


you are really obsessed with this, aren't you?



lmao what?? hey dude youre really obsessed with this global pandemic... have you tried just like, vibing.....


liceo posted:

i explicitly said in multiple posts that talking about the effectiveness of any of the vaccines is not a productive conversation because while they are helping people, there are still objective unknowns.



okay so we're just going full granola dumbshit on this forum now

#1118
I've said it before, I sympathize when people start talking about vaccine-mutated humantids and how their minds are being invaded by microwave clairaudience, but forums posting is not a treatment for their psychotic break. That said I don't think we should be, like, actively promoting it
#1119
[account deactivated]
#1120

cars posted:

lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll



cmon dawg logically.ai is as clear a CIA website as i've seen, i'm not "anti-vax" or whatever idiotic abstraction you're gonna whip out next but seeing all the stops pulled to destroy this guy's reputation because he voiced basically mild concerns about the regulatory process is more worrisome than funny i think, irrespective of what you think of him. the objection they have to him being called the inventor of mrna tech boils down to 1) other people were working on similar things at the same time and 2) that he didn't literally bring it to the market, as if every other existing therapy had the billions of dollars in necessary R&D shouldered by research labs who can barely afford to pay their assistants. from what i've seen he's not a crackpot libertarian type, he's just not politically savvy enough to understand why the only media outlets willing to speak to him are, like the epoch times, reactionary intelligence cutouts. anyway the only really embarrassing things in this thread are your appeals to vulgar scientism and repeated attempts to draw people into the mud for no reason, i dont recall anyone saying anything close to resembling "vaccine-mutated humantids and how their minds are being invaded by microwave clairaudience", stop being dense