#1041
kim jong un dropping the n bomb while playing fortnite on twitch
#1042

Caesura109 posted:

First export to the North after peace will be Jake Paul and YouTube culture


I assume they then nuke us in retaliation, which is only fair.

#1043

sovnarkoman posted:

n bomb while playing fortnite on twitch



its ninja now

#1044
*fucik - entry of the gladiators plays at full volume*




#1045
The obvious thing here is South Korea’s top spot on the list over the last couple decades, but don’t overlook the steady flow of weapons from Washington to getfiscal’s house, strategically located in the exact center of Canada.
#1046
I heard on English-language Korean radio (which is, obviously, for troops and spooks) that RoK is trying to work on some basic reunification stuff, like Sunshine Policy-era jointly-run factories, but cannot because of international sanctions. this came with no commentary whatsoever on which red-white-and-blue Korea-occupying Western nation led the implementation of these sanctions lol
#1047

cars posted:

*fucik - entry of the gladiators plays at full volume*






i am happy for the american working class making money from such productive activities

#1048
are you
#1049
le_epic_mr_bison_yes.gif
#1050

cars posted:

*fucik - entry of the gladiators plays at full volume*





this is really amazing. interesting to see that the fall of the ussr changes absolutely nothing

#1051
the US isn't at war with communism, or drugs, or terrorism, or poverty. the US is fighting a war against reality.
#1052
looking at that map, i think they’re fighting a bunch of wars, against people
#1053
looks like at the end there a big chunk of weapons start flowing into india, wonder if that's part of preparations for a war against china.
#1054
also interesting that 1989 appears to have changed exactly nothing
#1055
Are there good articles I can send to jerks online that take down these absurd "the dprk is a hell hole" clowns I'm running into on social media or do I have to gravely dishonor my entire family by linking them to a forum thread on this site.
#1056
Are there good articles I can send to jerks online that take down these absurd "the dprk is a hell hole" clowns I'm running into on social media or do I have to gravely dishonor my entire family by linking them to a forum thread on this site.
#1057
Don't send articles imo, just explain what you know with your own posts. Either way, you can't change anybody's mind, online
#1058

loudboy posted:

Are there good articles I can send to jerks online that take down these absurd "the dprk is a hell hole" clowns I'm running into on social media or do I have to gravely dishonor my entire family by linking them to a forum thread on this site.



i think the exercise is going to be pretty futile unless they're really open minded

try these though:

https://gowans.wordpress.com/2007/03/03/understanding-north-korea/
https://www.mintpressnews.com/north-korea-neither-trump-nor-western-media-wants-world-see/233355/
https://leftistcritic.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/something-which-most-other-developing-countries-would-envy-the-dprks-healthcare-system/
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/01/true-or-false-kooky-north-korea-stories (mostly accurate)

#1059
more power to ya, but prepare for disappointment.

the problem with compiling a big list of Facts and dropping them in someone's lap is that unless they have the critical skills and media literacy necessary to notice on their own that kim jong un's uncle who was brutally executed via an improbably large mouse trap is bound to turn up again 3 months later as if nothing happened, they'll just get suckered by the next one.

by the time you've posted a bunch of articles debunking a bunch of bogus claims, there will be something new and they'll be demanding you disprove that one, too. forever. because the propaganda doesn't rely on people rationally assessing factual pieces of information, it is made out of appeals to emotion and boilerplate orientalist yellow peril racism.
#1060
the old lady lurks here (sup) and this thread made her think twice about it
#1061
#1062

toyotathon posted:

the old lady lurks here (sup) and this thread made her think twice about it


i don't think that changing people's minds is impossible, it just requires a different context and attitude. actively taking an interest and following conversations about something is far more likely to engage your brain meats and make them do some of the work themselves. plus you have nothing to lose if you're just an observer or hanging out with people you trust irl, as opposed to putting your politics at stake performing as a public spectacle for the entire internet.

the confrontational Prove Me Wrong debate format puts people's own credibility and self image at risk, so they have so much more incentive to deny and reject the cognitive dissonance

#1063
the impossibility or not of mind-changing aside, i'd like to offer what I think is probably the easiest and most logical progression route from CIA world factbook to reality on the Korean Question - with an eye to convincing your friends, loved ones, colleagues, strangers in the queue outside the job centre, paying customers at mcdonalds who just want to eat our food in peace and quiet please, etc.,

nobody, under any circumstances, likes to be just straight up told that what they already think is wrong. this doesn't matter as much as it seems for your current task, because actually although proactive misinformation about the DPRK has a whole flourishing industry dedicated to its fabrication and distribution, i'm going to suggest that the far more productive tack for you personally isn't to tackle any of that head on (don't even bother trying to talk about how the DPRK doesn't actually worship unicorns, how KJU's babysitter didn't get shot out of a cannon into a pack of wild dogs, how vast touring pleasure harems don't go around the country catering to the every whim of party officials, etc.) but just to introduce true facts to counterweigh this garbage.

most run-of-the-mill anti-Korean propaganda directed against ordinary citizens of NATO, regardless of its specific content, functions on something like the following unifying axiom: "the culture and society of the DPRK is bonkers and militaristic, and nobody knows why".

countering the first and more deeply ingrained half of that conjunction, which you have witnessed a bit of in this thread, is important and just, but can also become a thankless and difficult task. you are put in the unfavourable position of saying to your nearest and dearest: "You Are Wrong. not only are you wrong, but the Newspaper is Also Wrong". that's a hard corner to fight.

easier, is to begin by attacking the second and more vulnerable part of that anti-Korean axiom, the "why do they hate us?" part. it's easier for two reasons: a) you'll just be introducing new/interesting information to people rather than trying to disabuse them of information they believe they already have, and b) the materials you're using are trivially true, matters of public record.

let's start with the quite common NATO-dweller quandry: "Why does the DPRK hate America? 🤷 that's crazy and horrible! I'm from America!"

just completely ignoring anything about unicorns or pleasure harems or human cannon antics, you can make substantial progress just by supplying basic, verifiable, public-record facts that go some way towards answering this question (and thereby reducing its potency as a basic axiom of anti-Korean propaganda)

  • FACT: Between 3-4 million Koreans - or roughly 20% - 1 in 5 - of the population of the DPRK were killed during the American invasion of the Korean Peninsula

    FACT: The US airforce dropped more gross tonnage of bombs north of the 38th parallel, than it dropped in total during the course of the Second World War

    FACT: The DPRK's capital, Pyongyang, was subjected to indiscriminate carpet bombing, including its civilian infrastructure, which was so effective that by the end of hostilities, no buildings were left. Every school, hospital, home, fire station, library, business, without exception, was physically removed by American aerial bombardment - no building in modern-day Pyongyang was built before ~1953 for this reason

    FACT: The Korean Peninsula is occupied and partitioned by the United States Eighth Army, and has been on a continuous basis from 1953 to 2018. troop levels fluctuate, but typically range from between 30,000 to 70,000. At no time have there been fewer than 30,000 US soldiers in the Korean Peninsula since 1951. This occupation force today is without exception the largest "peace-time" overseas deployment of US combat troops anywhere on the planet

    FACT: the 38th Parallel, which divides North and South Korea, is maintained by the United States. It represents the extent of US conquest into the Peninsula (from the Southern end, where US Troops first landed). The entire political geography of the modern Korean peninsula is based principally upon the cartography of the United States invasion of Korea

    FACT: in the aftermath of the US invasion of Korea, the United States established a military dictatorship in its area of control. popular uprisings against this dictatorship in South Korea, such as the Gwangju Democratic Uprising of May 18, 1980, were violently crushed with the blessing of the United States.

    FACT: The United States Eighth Army and other attached forces stage an annual simulated invasion of the DPRK - "Operation Foal Eagle" - in which massive artillery bombardment, amphibious landings and other displays of violent power are conducted in full view of the DPRK, as close to DPRK territory as possible. The sound of US artillery bombardment from this exercise can be heard from the capital, Pyongyang, by its civilian population

    etc.


more later
#1064
how to talk to your kids about Korea, cont'd:

since Britain is a NATO member, imperialist power and in fact even took part in America's attempted ethnic cleansing of the Korean population in thr 1950s, there are many differences between the national situations of the two countries that seem to make sober comparison impossible.

however, in the popular consciousness of virtually all British people (apologies if you're American, this is going to be harder) there are a number of useful analogies that can be made, in trying to answer, within a British mindset, questions to the effect of "what is it like to be from the DPRK?" and the corollary, "why do DPRK citizens hate the NATO powers (esp. America)?"

during the opening years of the Second World War, before the progress of the Third Reich's conquest of Europe was decisively checked and reversed by the entry of the Soviet Union as an allied combatant in 1941, it is a well-known fact that the British government and public made serious preparations for the eventuality that German troops would succeed in establishing a beachhead or even gaining major or total control of the British mainland. this period of uncertainty, in which the conquest and partition of Britain by an overseas conquering force was treated as a real possibility, is taught to all British citizens as one of the fundamental establishing events of their national identity - and it was this possibility of successful German conquest of the British mainland which elicted the now-famous statement of intent by the British government to "fight on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the fields and in the streets in the hills" etc.

concurrent with the expectation that a German army would mount a successful invasion of the British mainland, the British capital was also subjected to intermittent aerial bombardment (albeit on a scale orders of magnitude less severe than the aerial bombardment of Pyongyang), and this period, known as "the Blitz", is likewise represented to all British citizens as an indelible part of their identity-forming historical narrative.

as anybody who has made more than a superficial study of 20th century history is well aware, the entrance of the USSR as an allied combatant in 1941 almost immediately obviated the serious possibility that Germany would ever succeed in occupying the British mainland, so luckily for the British people, the credible fear of invasion, occupation and subjugation by a foreign army never became a reality in the 20th century in the way that it did for the Korean people.

why bring up any of this garbage GCSE lesson in British history? well, one way - perhaps the only way, really - that any British citizen could come even vaguely close, in terms of a realistic historical point of contact to their own culture, to imagining what it is like to be a citizen of the DPRK, is to imagine that the expected conquest of Britain by Germany came true in 1940-41. to draw a parallel, they would perhaps need to imagine that "the Blitz" - the aerial bombardment of the British capital intended by Germany as the precursor to the occupation of Britain by a German army - had intensified far beyond what it actually did. they must imagine that the Luftwaffe, the German airforce, succeeded in destroying all buildings in London without exception, and that the entire population of London - any who survived the bombing, that is - were displaced to the surrounding countryside.

in real life, approximately 500,000 British citzens (including all military and civilian causalties) were killed during the entire course of the Second World War. given a historical population estimate of around 46 million, another way to put this is that 1 in every 100 British citizens, or a little over 1% of the population of Britain, perished - most of these dying overseas in foreign combat theatres: France, North Africa, Germany itself, etc. for the purpose of comparison to the DPRK, a British citizen trying in earnest to understand what it is like to be a DPRK citizen must instead imagine that 9.2 million, rather than 500,000, British citizens were slain in this conflict, and that virtually all of these perished in the British Isles itself. to imagine that outcome is not difficult if one already imagines the hypothetical total destruction by aerial bombardment of mid-20th century London and the corresponding casualties, adding to them perhaps another million or two as a result of a subsequent bloody guerrila warfare campaign against the advancing German army in mainland Britain, and of punitive killings and/or ethnic cleansing in regions falling under German control.

if a British citizen holds these alternative historical preliminaries clearly in their mind, they are perhaps in a position to vaguely apprehend - though never truly sympathise with - the general shape of the plight of the Korean people during and after the invasion of the Korean Peninsula by the United States and its allies, including up to the present day.

so basically, suppose the following: after the total physical destruction of London by the Luftwaffe and successful German amphibious assault on Britain's coastal areas, 9 million British citizens are dead, and the Third Reich controls the British mainland as far as e.g. Hadrian's Wall. A German puppet government has been established and rules the whole of South Britain (i.e. England and Wales), exerting absolute control, under martial law, of the majority of Britain's surviving population, as well as almost all of its remaining agricultural and industrial resources - arable land, factories, mines, major seaports, population centres (except London, which as per the above, no longer physically exists), etc.

a British citizen today can gain a very rough approximation of what it is like to be a citizen of the DPRK, in terms of historical/cultural legacy, by imagining that they are a citizen of the last-ditch British resistance against German occupation in this scenario, living exclusively in Scotland, under total indefinite naval and land blockade by the Third Reich. similar to the Northern region of the Korean Peninsula, large portions of Scotland (actual and hypothetical) are mountainous, remote, underdeveloped and unprepared for basic subsistence farming, let alone advanced industry. 9 million British citizens have died in the space of a little over two years. The Republic of Britain (ROB), a military dictatorship loyal to Germany has, under the direction of the Third Reich, built and manned modern military fortifications which completely bisect the former British Isles along a line roughly corresponding to the historical Hadrian's Wall. nobody may get in or out. families unfortunate enough to have surviving members on either side of Hadrian's Wall are now permanently seperated. any and all attempts to overthrow the Republic of Britain from within are quickly and easily defeased by the summary execution of all involved. however, in the interest of global security and harmonious international relations, Berlin is eager that the few remaining North British should open up a bit to their ROB compatriots, so the SS, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and the newly established ROB Armed Forces stage annual joint exercises designed to encourage this. Windowpanes in Edinburgh, the North Britain capital, quiver and shatter each year during the simulated artillery bombardment taking place in Berwick-Upon-Tweed, Dumfries and Galashiels. tens of thousands of German and ROB infantry and marines sweep dramatically across Northumberland and Luftwaffe heavy bombers fly enormous sorties in formation back and forth within sight of the "border". this happens every year without fail, each time more spectacular than the last, for the next 65 years

EXERCISE: what is domestic and civic life, culture and society like, for citizens of North Britain in this scenario - 5, 10, 50, 65 years after German occupation, assuming the German occupation continues indefinitely, as the US occupation of Korea has?

do the North British maintain some kind of Resistance Army, in accordance with General Winston Churchill's saying about the German Imperialist Forces: "Fight them on the Beaches/Fight them in the Hills/Never Surrender"? how important do you think is the North British Army, and its guiding operational principles (i.e, Churchill's theory of guerilla warfare and anti-German Revolution), to the political life and culture of North British society?

supposing, indeed, that any remnant of the original wartime government (Churchill et al.) survived the total incineration of London, and went on to lead North British resistance efforts, in what regard or esteem do you imagine these people would be held by the North British? and what sort of things do you think the German Government (which controls most of the country) would say about them?

what do you think is the state of North British agriculture and industry, built from scratch in Scotland's mountains and wastes, all whilst desperately repelling the military advance of the German (and latterly ROB) forces?

under indefinite total naval and land blockade by the Third Reich, do you think the North British have encountered any difficulties during the last 65 years? what kinds of difficulties do you think they faced? has food been a problem? what about other consumer goods? clothes? medicine? where does that kind of stuff come from?

what does North British culture seem like to tourists from the Third Reich? do you anticipate any problems or odd situations arising during sightseeing tours by citizens of the Third Reich in Edinburgh? hey, we just came to eat haggis and look at the castle ya crazy freaks!

(e: optional post soundtrack, includes images of North Britain, hermit kingdom)




Edited by Ufuk_Surekli ()

#1065
to clarify - and specifically with regard to the "where first, from NATO-worldview belief to objective reality?" - i think this is, on reflection something like how my own view of the situation in Korea developed:

i started out believing that Korea was crazy and nobody knew why, as do basically all citizens of NATO by default.

rather than immediately being climbed down from this belief, i first had to reach an intermediate stage, where i believed that Korea was crazy, but the crazyness of the NATO occupation of Korea outweighed what I thought was the crazyness of Korea.

from a position of knowing the crazyness of the NATO occupation, i then moved into a region of increasing sceptical confidence about the imputations of crazyness that are made about Korea and the Korean people by the governments of NATO.

the analogy with the fictional occupation of Britain is a useful one for me (British) - in the example, in order to get to the point of realising the stupidity of learning about North Britain by reading the newspapers of the Third Reich, I would first have had to be aware, fully aware, of the extent to which the British Isles was occupied, the scale and depravity of the conflict, the conditions of the "peace", etc.

active scepticism against the wilder propaganda claims is only the natural outgrowth of being in the full possession of the facts. so i reiterate, focus on simply educating others about the uncontroversial facts of the Korean conflict, which are staggering by themselves, and genuinely unknown to most NATO citizens. make it your mission just to supply the mundane facts, the ones that are easily checked and not in serious dispute, and not to even bother to discredit the wild propaganda claims. let any sane person, in the possession of full basic facts about the occupation of Korea, reach the conclusion on their own that DPRK citizens don't actually worship unicorns etc.
#1066
PS, a disclaimer: irl i do not believe, nor do i seriously mean to imply, that the historical winston churchill - a racist, sexist alcoholic, active participant in, and beneficiary of, the imperial conquests of the British aristocracy, the rapist and looter of Kenya and the incompetent butcher of Gallipoli - was in any way a statesman of comparable stature, skill or humanity to President Kim Il Sung, the liberator of the Korean people and progenitor of the Juche Idea.

the use of the figure of churchill in the above comparator description of a hypothetically occupied British Isles serves the sole purpose of introducing the valorization of well-known resistance leaders under conditions of desperate national occupation (such as in that fictional depiction) to potential audiences in the grip of ignorance and imperialist propaganda. no disrespect is intended to real historical heroes.
#1067
aaaand excuse the fabled quintuple-post, but to broaden the scope of the "what is it like to be from the DPRK" exercise to the whole world,

Dear citizen of any country,

less than a single human lifetime ago, the most powerful nation on earth made a journey of 5000 miles in order to conduct a pogrom that killed every fifth inhabitant of your country. they trapped you and 10 million other people in whichever part of your country looks the most like the surface of the moon. oh, also, they never left, they're still here, and they pretend-attack you every year so you never know when the attack will be real. also they won't let you go and visit your gran, who lives on the other side of the barbed wire and machine gun nests. how the fuck are you feeling this morning

#1068
thank you very sincerely for these posts
#1069
damn,
#1070
this is sincerely very good and informative stuff. i should like to copy and paste these posts to other forums and pass them off as my own work if that's okay.
#1071

toutvabien posted:

thank you very sincerely for these posts


shriekingviolet posted:

damn,


ghostpinballer posted:

this is sincerely very good and informative stuff. i should like to copy and paste these posts to other forums and pass them off as my own work if that's okay.



aww shucks, you guys. they're just posts

#1072
good shit
#1073
the progression of this reuters special report about the synthetic fabric, Vinalon, which is made out of rocks, may a) give you more flavour of "what is it like to be from the DPRK" for your occupied-Britain wargame - also of what Juche (self-reliance; masters/subjects of our own destiny) actually looks like and means, and how it's not just empty talk or an ideological indulgence.

short version, Vinalon is a special type of clothing made out of rocks. do human beings normally have to make clothes out of rocks? no? well what possible geopolitical circumstances could lead any government to try and develop a form of rock-based clothing? probably they're totally crazy or something right

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-vinalon-special-report/special-report-the-fabulous-story-of-north-koreas-fabric-made-of-stone-idUSKBN1F621H

Problem:

article posted:

In North Korea (...) winter temperatures are frigid and (...) cannot produce enough cotton or wool for clothing


oh, right.


Unworkable Solution + Compounding Problem:

article posted:

Companies in Japan and China make vinylon based on petroleum. But North Korea has no oil reserves.


fuck


Working Solution

article posted:

Instead it makes vinalon from two commodities it has in abundance: coal and limestone.

The process starts with workers mining anthracite and breaking limestones.

(...)

In 1972, the CIA recorded figures from 1956-1971 which showed the North had produced 7 million more meters of textiles than the South.


when life gives you rocks, make clothes. more clothes than the part of the country that can actually grow cotton, or even import it if it wants to


Counter-Problem

video attached to article posted:

Leader Kim Jong Un has called for a resurgence (of Vinalon), apparently in the name of self-reliance, but Western arms experts say there's another motive.

American interviewee: "The Vinalon factory is located in a very large chemical plant that makes a lot more than just Vinalon, and one of those things it makes, is probably rocket fuel"


the rock-clothes of our enemies are actually probably maybe a secret weapon factory. or at least next to one, or near one, probably. we're very alarmed and concerned. we'd actually like them to stop producing the rock-clothes and just, i dunno, just sit naked indoors or something





e: suggested post soundtrack:

Edited by Ufuk_Surekli ()

#1074
Clothes made of rock is actually badass
#1075
I bet they are itchy though I'm starting to rethink this whole Juche thing
#1076
*dusts off Big Book of Dad Jokes* hrmmm. let's see.. Ah.

Vinalon, more like Glam Rock
#1077
#1078

Ufuk_Surekli posted:

an annual simulated invasion of the DPRK - "Operation Foal Eagle"



the rumor among Troops is that this stands for "Operation: Fuck Everything", and for once I believe them

#1079
Journaleism

#1080
It's a shame they put English on there, would enjoy arrogant Americans having to ask their one Korean friend what 위생 봉투 means in order to shit on the dprk only to find out he's an adoptee.