#81

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

i'm sure you wouldn't have too much trouble finding yourself in a north korean labor camp if you seriously believe it's a comparable (and certainly more moral) standard of living

Edited by xipe ()

#82
#83
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#84

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

aerdil posted:

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

yeah that dude who stole a picture was an existential threat to their totally stable, prosperous and sane society

would i not face any jailtime in the united states if i trespassed into a restricted part of a hotel and stole a painting worth $10,000? hint: it's felony theft. because that's how much the kid admitted he was going to sell that picture for. Not ten years hard labor and in fact if the property were recovered and you were a foreigner you'd probably just be deported and barred from reentry you know you can wind up on a literal slave plantation picking cotton right. that's a thing that still happens in the US. what the fuck are you on about #85 meanwhile in free and capitalist south korea: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c22de3a565fe4e85a0508bbbd72c3c1b/ap-s-korea-covered-mass-abuse-killings-vagrants South Korea covered up mass rapes, killings of child ‘vagrants’ in ’70s, ’80s An AP investigation found that the South Korea government attempted to 'purify' the streets by forcing many into slave labour ahead of the 1988 Olympics. #86 le_nelson_mandela_face posted: i agree these tourists are pretty paranoid. it's not like they're being accompanied at all times by a stepford spydrone that only lets them see preapproved areas or something Some posters, over the years, have gone on to read hundreds of books, meet and struggle with steadfast comrades, and participate in remarkable experiences while serving the people. With all do respect - as you have been posting here far longer than me - I have to ask: How has this forum contributed to your personal development? #87 MarianneSadd posted: Some posters, over the years, have gone on to read hundreds of books, meet and struggle with steadfast comrades, and participate in remarkable experiences while serving the people. With all do respect - as you have been posting here far longer than me - I have to ask: How has this forum contributed to your personal development? just shout post the steampunk wedding or something at goat #88 chickeon posted: le_nelson_mandela_face posted: aerdil posted: le_nelson_mandela_face posted: yeah that dude who stole a picture was an existential threat to their totally stable, prosperous and sane society would i not face any jailtime in the united states if i trespassed into a restricted part of a hotel and stole a painting worth$10,000? hint: it's felony theft. because that's how much the kid admitted he was going to sell that picture for.

Not ten years hard labor and in fact if the property were recovered and you were a foreigner you'd probably just be deported and barred from reentry

you know you can wind up on a literal slave plantation picking cotton right. that's a thing that still happens in the US. what the fuck are you on about

lol you people, seriously

#89
hey dudes if you squint really really hard and ignore context this thing north korea does is only a tad worse than one of the worst injustices in the first world

ok
#90
ah, the perfect opportunity to put theory into practice presents itself *draws in a deep breath*: "post the steampunk wedding pics goat!"
#91

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

i agree these tourists are pretty paranoid. it's not like they're being accompanied at all times by a stepford spydrone that only lets them see preapproved areas or something

Some posters, over the years, have gone on to read hundreds of books, meet and struggle with steadfast comrades, and participate in remarkable experiences while serving the people. With all do respect - as you have been posting here far longer than me - I have to ask: How has this forum contributed to your personal development?

i've learned many things. one thing i have learned is that american socialists are in no way actually concerned with winning public opinion, which is why they defend among other things north korea despite it turning off everyone to literally zero benefit

#92
You're right. American socialists should throw themselves on the mercy of the capitalist marketing associates and hope that they give them a fair shake, or at least the same even-handedness that they show the DPRK.
#93

thirdplace posted:

juche is an ideological dead-end to the extent that it even qualifies as an ideology?

Can you tell me what you read on juche because this tells me nothing and I wanna read the text that teaches nothing

Edited by Urbandale ()

#94
that's fair, I haven't really read anything that hasn't been filtered through untrustworthy, orientalist sources and in that spirit i should not have included that last part

otoh if we're talking about anything other than stalinist cosplay i think the only important question for the american left w/r/t north korea is "what are we going to do when the insatiable maw of american imperialism begins to gear up for another police action on the peninsula" and i don't see how a correct line on juche thought will be helpful in those efforts
#95

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

hey dudes if you squint really really hard and ignore context this thing north korea does is only a tad worse than one of the worst injustices in the first world

ok

goat, asians aren't just "squinting really hard".... ban this chucklefuck.

#96

You're right. American socialists should throw themselves on the mercy of the capitalist marketing associates and hope that they give them a fair shake, or at least the same even-handedness that they show the DPRK.

north korea is actually an authoritarian hellhole so yes calling it an authoritarian hellhole is giving it a fair shake. i'm so sorry that you feel compelled to defend said hellhole because they spout approximately the right mojo bullshit

#97
Guess where else is an authoritarian hellhole? That's right,
#98
Guess where else is an authoritarian hellhole? That's right,
#99

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

north korea is actually an authoritarian hellhole

Citation needed

#100

Guess where else is an authoritarian hellhole? That's right,

this forum isnt that bad

#101
I think this thread is falling into a certain sort of trap. Certainly, it's important to establish that propaganda about North Korea is insane and filled with blatant lies. However, just doing this and or rather focusing on this at the cost of other forms persuasion is IMO counter-productive. This is because it does not address the reason why people accept these lies and as the result of this, falls into the trap of endlessly trying to prove things we can't. If the acceptance of these lies is really akin to a sort of mental illness, than it is obvious that we can't argue people out of that illness.

I think one origin of mental illness is a kind of disconnection: from who one is and from the world one lives in. Two aspects of this are the context of history and our moral responsibility. Therefore in terms of North Korea, here's what we must communicate:

1. During the Korean War, Western Imperialism murdered millions of Koreans. Our governments and our societies still have not apologized.

2. Our governments and our societies actively whitewash Japanese war crimes and the history of colonization. We go as far as erasing the crime of sexual slavery with euphemisms like "comfort women" and making deals over the heads of the Korean people to "settle" the issue "once and for all." Politicians in power in both South Korea and Japan have connections to these crimes, and are themselves symbols of the refusal to honestly confront these issues.

3. Koreans die because of economic sanctions. Dispensing food aid while maintaining these sanctions is the equivalent is keeping someone at the brink of death in order to further torture them. The crime is taken farther when we lie by pretending it's for their own good. If the North Korean government is really oppressing its people, then we are cruelly fostering their dependency on the government and sabotaging possible bottom-up resistance.

4. Both the rights and wealth of the first world working class are built upon the struggles of workers worldwide. These include the struggles of Korean workers. The only two countries in the world to achieve development within capitalism in the last century are Taiwan and South Korea. This would have been impossible without the victories of neighboring real existing socialist states and the efforts of the masses throughout East Asia. The collapse of real existing socialist states and recent loss of our wealth and rights are not a coincidence.

5. Historically North Korea has been a part of the vanguard in the struggle against colonialism and racism worldwide, whether it be the support for Black Panthers in the US or for anti-colonial struggles throughout Africa. This is a good article about North Korea's relationship with Africa: http://journal-neo.org/2016/03/18/north-korea-punished-for-helping-to-liberate-africa/

6. The economic collapse of North Korea in the 90s was not due to internal contradictions, but due to the collapse of socialist states worldwide. In fact, the North was ahead of the South by all measures of development (afaik) until the 80s. And again, South Korea owes North Korea and real existing socialist states for its development.

Of course, this too is a kind of argument. But if we ourselves are authentically involved in the struggle and have the discipline to provide leadership in Marxist Leninist fashion, then these facts become building blocks for a world that we can invite others to be apart of. We all know this is easier said than done. Our world certainly is not lacking in darkness. But I have faith that it will never be as dark and as lonely as the insane world of people who accept this propaganda.
#102
authoritarian clown show north korea sends doctors to angola while their own citizens die in squalor: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/04/485_203038.html
#103
this is pretty good: https://vngiapaganda.wordpress.com/2015/09/05/democracy-us-vs-dprk-towards-the-annihilation-of-a-narrative/

also, lots of neat stuff under the "accumulated DPRK counter-narrative" link up top
#104
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#105
i for one wish we had even more discussion about goatstein and/or the views of his in-laws regarding their ancestral homeland
#106

thirdplace posted:

that's fair, I haven't really read anything that hasn't been filtered through untrustworthy, orientalist sources and in that spirit i should not have included that last part

otoh if we're talking about anything other than stalinist cosplay i think the only important question for the american left w/r/t north korea is "what are we going to do when the insatiable maw of american imperialism begins to gear up for another police action on the peninsula" and i don't see how a correct line on juche thought will be helpful in those efforts

If you haven't read anything on juche, what have you read on the DPRK in general?

#107
just various online shit and a documentary or two (Crossing the Line, which gave most of its screen time to a Western supporter of NK living there)

what book should I read to convince me that appointing all three leaders of a state's seventy year history from the same immediate family is a sign of healthy socialism
#108

thirdplace posted:

what book should I read to convince me that appointing all three leaders of a state's seventy year history from the same immediate family is a sign of healthy socialism

I was trying to "burn" you by posting a link to a book that defends the British monarchy, but I couldn't find such a book, but I did find this book http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674735347

#109
Generations of students have been taught that the American Revolution was a revolt against royal tyranny. What this book presupposes is, maybe it wasn't?
#110
That actually seems like a good and interesting book.
#111
its thesis is true. the constitution was a quiet war between people who thought the king of america should decide when it goes to war and the people who thought the decision should rest in the hands of wealthy hemp farmers. and today Gaddafi is executed by proxy while even the most Obama shaped bong is ripped from the hands of an innocent white house tourist
#112
this doesn't even seem to have a point but it inadvertently shows off the DPRK's lovely solar panels and thriving food production????
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/04/asia/gallery/inside-north-korea/index.html
#113
Rhizzone poster: once again, we see western propaganda reduced to the lies it always was. The Corean people ar e farming big, juicy cabbages in suits. Meanwhile, the western imperialist nazi dog doesn't even wear suits anymore. Hje just hangs out at 7-11 and bullies me when I try to buy big gulp.
#114
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#115

Keven posted:

Rhizzone poster: once again, we see western propaganda reduced to the lies it always was. The Corean people ar e farming big, juicy cabbages in suits. Meanwhile, the western imperialist nazi dog doesn't even wear suits anymore. Hje just hangs out at 7-11 and bullies me when I try to buy big gulp.

If you'd bothered to click the link and read the caption before treating us to your traditional snark, you'd know that mural is located at the Jang Chon cooperative farm, and it looks like another banner year of crop production to me. In fact, the next slide in the series shows us the markets are plush with fresh produce.

Edited by ilmdge ()

#116
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#117
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#118

tears posted:

Guess where else is an authoritarian hellhole? That's right,

this forum isnt that bad

not yet

#119

Petrol posted:

That actually seems like a good and interesting book.

#120
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