#1681
the above post was written before i saw the most recent one from you.
#1682

liceo posted:

i can't speak for other regions because i was young and naive and only really "knew" my city's version of it. nevertheless i was still decently involved in my area (rust belt city) but this is also my experience through and through. maybe that's misperception but i don't think so because i still know a high percentage of people involved.



Yeah the ones in which I was involved, it was majority unemployed/underemployed, with a minority of petit bourgeois anarchos and left-liberal Democrat types who were mostly day-to-day visitors at best. Local MLs/MLMs and associated groups seemed to take a long-haul approach that I appreciated, contributing productively while understanding this was an incubator for struggle. Local Trots, thankfully, were all but no-shows except when marches were happening, as they'd turned tailing the masses into some sort of official policy.

The PB, anarcho/liberal types sure would have liked to run everything, but the well-known issue with OWS was that the obsession with consensus-derived decision-making (I'd had my fill of it in the early 2000s) meant no one really could be in charge. Food distribution started up without the organization needed to defend it, and that got the cops salivating because the homeless population was the easiest excuse for them to knock over the camps while they still had the nominal support of the community around them. Eventually that's how it happened. No infiltration was needed, because the lack of central leadership meant defense of the camp couldn't be mustered against early-morning militarized-cop raids.

The people who are now held up as the "founders" and "leaders" of OWS, both by themselves and their liberal cohort and by younger "leftist" conspiracy theorists online who weren't old enough to be involved (and again, I don't blame them for being a little over-zealous)—cash-in hacks such as Micah White—had relatively little influence over the OWS actions and camps even in the cities where they were directly involved. As an ex-anarcho, I've certainly seen infiltrators move in and wreck organizations and actions. But my experience was that Occupy Wall Street camps mostly fell from brute force applied from the outside: cops waiting around for the homeless to join the camp and for local left-liberal booj and PB sympathizers in their neighborhood to get nervous as the impoverished local press desperately fanned the flames with scare stories. Then the cops used the presence of the homeless as justification for deploying all the military hardware they'd been stockpiling over the decade previous.

Over the years, that led to a lot of what we saw happen very quickly in summer 2020. The anger was real and had proximate causes in particular police abuses and murders, but what was different was that many organizations started actions ready to defend themselves and their neighborhoods with responses proportionate to what the police state brought to bear. They broke away from the Democrat hug-a-cop activities immediately, usually in the first day of large-scale actions, and a great many of the unorganized participants followed them. Nowadays, many of those leaders are getting assassinated by cops while the press looks the other way, and as grim as that is, it's also got those organizations and their descendants keeping score as they prepare for the next crisis.

#1683

liceo posted:

the above post was written before i saw the most recent one from you.



np, it's the Way of the Webforums

#1684

cars posted:

. But my experience was that Occupy Wall Street camps mostly fell from brute force applied from the outside: cops waiting around for the homeless to join the camp and for local left-liberal booj and PB sympathizers in their neighborhood to get nervous as the impoverished local press desperately fanned the flames with scare stories.


interesting, i've read that for other regions for sure. swampman and i were talking about this recently too and the thing that wrecked my area's was mostly heroin and severe alcoholism. maybe that was planted by the outside or maybe not, but that's what made it crumble, at least in my view.

#1685
nine posts. maybe cope less hard.

edit: eleven
#1686
.

Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#1687


This is the sort of shit that the pigs had to do in 2020 (the church was allegedly providing sanctuary to people the cops were after). A big reason why is that many local leaders and organizations in 2020 had learned through participation in Occupy Wall Street that the only space truly "occupied", truly secured, was the space underneath people's feet while they were still standing up. The OWS camps couldn't secure their own "occupying" camps; they invested in anti-cop boundary-guarding tactics that couldn't be put into play quickly enough against an early-morning raid.

In 2020, those leaders and organizations (and organizations descended from the OWS-involved ones) started with that new understanding, that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at once and that's all you can count on when the cops are essentially armored infantry moving in formation. And proceeding from that, they found that when street actions were joined by unorganized locals, those acting could move in numbers big enough to physically crowd out the police. The police eventually began to respond in kind, abandoning large portions of metro areas to group in tight formation around certain arbitrary points.

The funny and acceptable thing that's happened recently, though, is that a bunch of cops are cashing out the big fat pensions they've been sitting on in a sort of sullen-kid protest against how they might end up getting bad-mouthed in the press or even (in a handful of rare cases) getting dragged into court if they just up and murder someone during a traffic stop. Goatstein's greatest post might be the one about how putting tiny digital cameras in the hands of the public didn't prove that sasquatch or alien abduction was real, but instead revealed a truth much more stunning to much of white Amerika: black people were right about the police.

What I don't think a lot of people anticipated—I know I didn't—is how angry the cops would get over it, even as they remained first at the trough for every wave of public spending, including lapping up most of the grants given out for COVID-19. They'd gotten so used to their freedom as the top-dog street gang (and their pig unions had secured such unheard-of retirement packages in this day and age) that a bunch of them started quitting over the mere possibility they might get bad-mouthed in a public space. Those that remained made symbolic gestures that often included quitting from the SWAT detail in the hope that it would make local governments drop to their knees and beg forgiveness. And a lot of them are doing just that, kow-towing to the cop gang... but for the cops to squeeze the money like that, for it to pinch at all, they had to undermine their own effectiveness in a manner that will take time to completely reverse.

So, if another similar point of crisis arrives within the next 2-3 months or so... when the cops in many cities do something like you see in the above picture, and they will, they will have fewer bodies to deploy elsewhere. Not so few that they'll be immobilized, but enough fewer that it will open up many opportunities for highly visible action. And that will leave a lot of territory to be occupied by other bodies. I don't think that's likely to result in a truly revolutionary struggle next time around, but it will likely push a lot of organizations from the realm of tactics to the realm of strategy when it comes to "occupation". The cops being back in a position of reacting will cause them more problems with the public, even as they try to build up to put themselves back in the drivers' seat during street actions as they were when they first militarized, because so far, there is no real digital or high-tech solution that allows them to hide when they're removing two feet from the ground. That still requires highly visible applications of brute force.
#1688
leaving and coming back, it's plain to see, cars, your dumb punditry is now more than half the words written on the rhizzone. and it's mainly non-marxist, CIA fear-stoking garbage. silly punditry consuming all the oxygen.

eleven posts. you breezed past the three ways i said the future landowners of amerika were defending their future class interests vs wall street. wall street would be nothing without the flow of mortgage interest, the profits of land speculation and mortgage interest ARE wall street. are you actually reading us, or do you see other people's writing as jumping off points? here's some punditry: white people want to become landowners. my crystal ball's lookin polished after that one
#1689
holy shit, are you paid by the word?
#1690
ok
#1691
it's not. it's a forum with lots of smart people, not your personal blog.
#1692

toyot posted:

leaving and coming back, it's plain to see, cars, your dumb punditry is now more than half the words written on the rhizzone. and it's mainly non-marxist, CIA fear-stoking garbage. silly punditry consuming all the oxygen.



now THIS is some quality 'stangin

#1693

liceo posted:

interesting, i've read that for other regions for sure. swampman and i were talking about this recently too and the thing that wrecked my area's was mostly heroin and severe alcoholism. maybe that was planted by the outside or maybe not, but that's what made it crumble, at least in my view.


There were problems with drugs and alcohol where I was as well. People being under some influence contributed to multiple fights and sexual assaults. I remember this leading to a change in the atmosphere at night - smaller groups banding together for protection and a noticeable amount of people not coming around anymore. It certainly didn’t help fend off the police, but my memory was that it was months still before the police were really brought in to kick folks off the land. (In part I think that they waited until most other potential land-to-occupy options had been locked down aggressively)

#1694

toyot posted:

it's a forum with lots of smart people, not your personal blog.



#1695

solidar posted:

In part I think that they waited until most other potential land-to-occupy options had been locked down aggressively



yeah I think this is part of what led to a lot of the changed tactics in 2020. Because the camps were encircled and the alternatives were closed off before the cops moved in. It became clear to a lot of people that perimeter tactics to keep police from securing and patrolling didn't work when the hand closed, leading to "the only ground you occupy is underneath you."

#1696

cars posted:

In 2020, those leaders and organizations (and organizations descended from the OWS-involved ones) started with that new understanding, that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at once and that's all you can count on when the cops are essentially armored infantry moving in formation. And proceeding from that, they found that when street actions were joined by unorganized locals, those acting could move in numbers big enough to physically crowd out the police. The police eventually began to respond in kind, abandoning large portions of metro areas to group in tight formation around certain arbitrary points.



centuries of street battles, but it was only after occupy wall street that the unarmed masses learned how raw numbers could crowd out police. and in turn, that police should stay in militarized formation, instead of diffusing a single cop per 10 city blocks. 'new understanding', what are you talking about?

Edited by toyot ()

#1697
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Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#1698
(clickin the fresh rep scores) i guess cars need petrol
#1699

tears posted:

blinkandwheeze posted:


#1700

cars posted:

i understand the need to take a break sometimes... but it's Interesting To Me when people disappear off this forum for a while and come back with colon-fuls of far-right-online conspiracy theories and slang they use to shit all over threads. If you're in the running for this forum's next psychotic break the least you could do is bring us back some rare pepes



this post is beyond acceptable, in response to what i wrote about the class backgrounds and motives i observed at OWS. you should apologize.

#1701
please make a new thread for screaming at each other about occupy wall street
#1702
Occupy KKKonspiracy Thread
#1703
a lot of the static in this discussion hinges on nothing ... sovnarkoman simply stated that short, succint uprisings such as ows, yellow jackets, various anti-austerity movements overall in the core had foundations rooted in social imperialism. this is obviously true. then all of a sudden it evolved into a numbers game about how many leftists there were, how many rightists, who came out on top and so on. to be fair nobody cares about that shit, its an absolutely idiotic conversation and this is why it turned into posters poking at each other. i was too young for ows but for the yellow jackets it was a mixed bag and its totally normal because these anti-pauperization mass uprisings are supposed to be political umbrellas at first, since a relative dip in quality of life hits people on all political boards, ranging from various left wing groups to neofascists 'populist' politics, while in reality the majority of people stepping up are politically 'mild' and simply alienated people. a portion of that non-aligned strata which is the crushing majority in any of those uprisings will end up leaning more towards leftism, some will be more attracted to social fascism, all of this depending on their class/nation/gender conditions. and of course a few opportunists will rise up and try to rewrite a very short and impotent history to paint themselves as the leaders.

its very odd that a forum that propelled a very illuminating book such as false nationalism false internationalism (a book that criticized the black panthers party which was and still is the most advanced vanguard party that existed in the core) now has a little reactionary clique who wont acknowledge any sort of critique about uprisings in the core. what sovnarkoman duly noted is that internationalism had no place in these happenings, while internationalism being one if not the most important tenet that should guide every communist politics. even stepping aside from white nation dominated movements such as OWS, various anti austerity protests in europe, the yellow jackets - am not saying other nations were ushered out by force, they numerically couldnt stand their ground and just became disinterested by the degeneration - and so on to focus on something that bring much more enthusiasm here, the may-june 2020 uprisings over police brutality. as yo umay know this spread to other countries, particularly in western europe where people relate to police brutality. on a personal level it spoke to me a little bit more because i could fit it generationally and nationally speaking whereas the yellow jackets for example was a melting pot where old crackers, no matter their political alignment, came out on top in terms of demographics. the protests here regarding police brutality were quickly buried by both heavier repression - that was endorsed by most of the white nation - and by a cracker left petty boug - comprador alliance that quickly turned something which had brighter sparks than the usual 'french uprising' impotent folk culture into just that, another social movement that ended up stillbirth.

and if the anti police brutality uprisings, again just like anti austerity uprisings, make sense inside of imperial borders, in reality they might end up losing grip when it comes to a world scale analysis of the question. for example i think we underestimate the numbers of oppressed nationals joining imperial armies and being deployed abroad. i know from experience that the french army which has many deadly involvements all over afrika have a hefty sum of oppressed nationals, the same whos kin suffers from racism, police brutality, islamophobia, are targets of the endless war on crime etc. same could apply for amerika, how many hispanics and new afrikans who got deployed in irak and afghanistan? for one black person shot by a white cop how many deployed members of internal colonies going scorched earth on middle eastern or afrikan land? maybe im pivoting the discussion a little too much but just as the labor aristocracy sells out the world proletariat in exchange of relative comfort, maybe the oppressed nations are, depending on the time of the day, very or not so much oppressed, with interests that comes and goes with the wind.
#1704
well said.

to expand on 'the small reactionary clique', there's a small ex-SA contingent, grandfathered in, who are essentially socdems. cars, petrol, sv. the arguments between their rightist faction and the third-worldists have actual content. look how aggressive these three were to sovnarkoman, bhpn, myself. and it's because we actually disagreed on the class character of OWS. more to the point, they didn't even look into it. i asked a basic question: if this was 1) a movement against wall street, which collects its billions primarily by interest on land, 2) it happened immediately after a mass eviction from the land, 3) to put the ownership of the land back onto the balance sheet of the banks, (and 4, its intellectual touchstone was the book Debt, which discusses this, so there's no pleading ignorance): where was the call for land reform? you won't find it, because OWS participants were fighting for their class interests, which does not include land reform. bhpn says as labor aristocrats, i said and sovnarkoman said as future landowners.

so of course we were shouted down, we actually disagree on this! they think OWS was whitey's righteous (but tactically misguided) fight against the banks. we think OWS was an an inter-parasite squabble dressed up in leftist garb. kind of an old trick, you find this sleight-of-hand across the 20th century. our rightist faction here went even went further, in my opinion to a very ridiculous place, that it was OWS who taught BLM its tactics (despite BLM not being an occupation, or recognizably part of the movement of squares, and despite a century of black street action martyring those slain by the white police. did this convince anyone? leave it to whitey to try and take credit for teaching the black nation how to free itself!)

Edited by toyot ()

#1705
.

Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#1706
.

Edited by Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia ()

#1707

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

it's wild that we've gotten to a point where toyot has positioned himself in people's minds on the not-reactionary side of all this.



it could be because i'm against private land ownership, that the class that uses its hands to create all wealth should control factory and state, that the pan-euro empire needs to be destroyed for earth to live on...

#1708
chill out morons. i will reopen this thread (conspiracy thread) in 24h. either wait till then or make a new thread to continue your bullshit
#1709
this thread is, like, totally reopened
#1710
People really need to find a middle road between gross images and flame wars or they start to go stir crazy
#1711

swampman posted:

People really need to find a middle road between gross images and flame wars or they start to go stir crazy


i was about to make liceo's KKKonspiracy Library thread and just have a strobe-light-flashing goatse gif as the first post

#1712
i agree that it’s a bad sign that the recent reactionary n00b clique to arrive on this forum has gotten so gabby so quickly, but it’s downright funny that they think they’re anything else. anti-asian racism, anti-vaccination screeching, militant do-nothingism… you don’t need 100000 mg Vitamin E or whatever, you need Marx. We should have slapped down all this nonsense hard as soon as it popped its fat head up.
#1713
it’s not too late, btw… do you or don’t you want this place to become another 4chan clone, that’s the question i guess for the mods
#1714
oh sorry did i Do A Misandry?? lmao
#1715
everyone stopped arguing two days ago and shit will come around again soon enough. even my hemorrhoid is improving. if you want to battle it out to the death with people, make a separate thread for it and name your opponents John Cena style.
#1716

cars posted:

100000 mg Vitamin E or whatever, you need Marx


why not both?!?!

#1717
I just thought some classic Rhizzone curiosity might be piqued as to why these reactionary tendencies—doctrines of race purity, misogyny, anti-science, quietism—seem to adhere to the exact same couple people every time, just like they always did in the past. I guess it might take a couple more instances where it fucks up threads to receive the proper response. Oh well.
#1718

cars posted:

reactionary tendencies—doctrines of race purity, misogyny, anti-science, quietism—seem to adhere to the exact same couple people every time



y'all just let me know when the Committee renames these as "Based And Blackpilled" though, i'll respect demcen. lol

#1719
i think your aggressiveness and hostility has been the primary thing fucking up threads
#1720