#1721


direct link to the document on the FBI/Atomwaffen guy... i guess it's official now that Order of Nine Angles ("O9A") is a Fed cut-out
#1722
nvm

Edited by toyot ()

#1723

toyot posted:

cars posted:

In 2020, those leaders and organizations (and organizations descended from the OWS-involved ones) started with that new understanding, that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at once and that's all you can count on when the cops are essentially armored infantry moving in formation. And proceeding from that, they found that when street actions were joined by unorganized locals, those acting could move in numbers big enough to physically crowd out the police. The police eventually began to respond in kind, abandoning large portions of metro areas to group in tight formation around certain arbitrary points.

centuries of street battles, but it was only after occupy wall street that the unarmed masses learned how raw numbers could crowd out police. and in turn, that police should stay in militarized formation, instead of diffusing a single cop per 10 city blocks. 'new understanding', what are you talking about?


this post is drawing some strange inferences from what cars was saying it seems to me. like, even if OWS was reactionary in its overall class orientation, there were genuine leftist and black organisers on the periphery of it, as cars and shriekingviolet have mentioned. if this is the case, why would those organisers have been unable to learn from what they saw in terms of police operations against the movement, regardless of that movement's prevailing class character? if i'm a communist and i see some police suppressing an anarchist movement for example, that could still tell me a lot about how the police work to destroy a movement they think is dangerous. in addition, these organisers having personal experience of something clearly doesn't invalidate 'centuries of street battles' - surely it adds to it, since the organisers might well be aware of those centuries from a historical point of view, but may not have personally experienced police action themselves if they're young.

#1724

cars posted:

direct link to the document on the FBI/Atomwaffen guy... i guess it's official now that Order of Nine Angles ("O9A") is a Fed cut-out


it might be worth noting that O9A isn't a single organisation, most of their important ideological stuff stresses the need for independent cells that work autonomously with no central hierarchy or chain of command. still completely unsurprising that a bunch of those dudes would be feds though. it would also be very easy for feds to influence o9a groups if they wanted to, since all the documents are written pseudonymously and some of them are obviously by different people even though they've been attributed to the same person.

#1725

babyhueypnewton posted:

Your politics conform to the early Lenin assessment of labor aristocracy as an upper crust of workers who we must fight for leadership of the working class rather than the late Lenin for whom there are oppressor and oppressed nations. That's basically every Marxist party as well


what writings illustrate the shift you're describing? i'm scouting around the collected works and I'm still seeing battle-the-labor-aristocracy talk in 1920, which wouldn't occur to me as his "early" period

#1726

lo posted:

this post is drawing some strange inferences from what cars was saying it seems to me. like, even if OWS was reactionary in its overall class orientation, there were genuine leftist and black organisers on the periphery of it, as cars and shriekingviolet have mentioned. if this is the case, why would those organisers have been unable to learn from what they saw in terms of police operations against the movement, regardless of that movement's prevailing class character? if i'm a communist and i see some police suppressing an anarchist movement for example, that could still tell me a lot about how the police work to destroy a movement they think is dangerous. in addition, these organisers having personal experience of something clearly doesn't invalidate 'centuries of street battles' - surely it adds to it, since the organisers might well be aware of those centuries from a historical point of view, but may not have personally experienced police action themselves if they're young.



i don't think anyone would dispute what you're saying... learning about people power first-hand in street demos beats hearing about it. it's possible after getting called every nasty thing he could think of, that i wasn't in the mood to be charitable to cars. but click his post again and read the first half. aside from whether the lesson was new to OWS, it isn't even true that "the only space truly "occupied", truly secured, (is) the space underneath people's feet while they (are) still standing up." -- insurrections around the world build barricades to hold area for weeks w/o physically filling the area with boots, just the perimeter. if OWS taught the lesson he said, then it was a false lesson. and the question could have been tested more forcefully by actually building and manning barricades. that really wasn't the mood tho, the two occupations i went to had zero barricades. OWS survived for weeks on the graces of the police, who eventually treated it like a nationally-coordinated homeless encampment raid, and it took them weeks not because of any military strategy on the part of the occupiers, just the political reality that wall street is unpopular, so destroying the camp would be unpopular. so they waited till the novelty wore off. anyway, the lesson is neither new or true.

maybe cars was making the maoist critique of insurrection, that 19th and 20th century history wrote in blood that urban insurrection is a failed war strategy, and slowly building red zones in the countryside and surrounding the cities (peoples war) is the successful one. i'm not sure that's the automatic conclusion everyone drew from OWS. the conclusions i see being drawn here are about 'lack of leadership', annoying GAs, the opportunists and careerists. in hindsight the imperial tailwind to the arab spring's movement of squares, which OWS consciously imitated, was probably underestimated at the time as an explanation for why those prolonged insurrections succeeded and ours failed like most have failed. and then there's its class composition, how its major novel demand was a debt jubilee for tuition and mortgages, benefiting the specific people who could buy land and get accepted to college in amerika between 1980 and 2010.

but yes, to what you said, showdowns with the cops are important for every young lefty to witness and participate in! especially when we push them back and show everyone they're just men.

#1727

Constantignoble posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Your politics conform to the early Lenin assessment of labor aristocracy as an upper crust of workers who we must fight for leadership of the working class rather than the late Lenin for whom there are oppressor and oppressed nations. That's basically every Marxist party as well

what writings illustrate the shift you're describing? i'm scouting around the collected works and I'm still seeing battle-the-labor-aristocracy talk in 1920, which wouldn't occur to me as his "early" period



you had to know him personally

#1728

toyot posted:

maybe cars was making the maoist critique of insurrection, that 19th and 20th century history wrote in blood that urban insurrection is a failed war strategy, and slowly building red zones in the countryside and surrounding the cities (peoples war) is the successful one. i'm not sure that's the automatic conclusion everyone drew from OWS. the conclusions i see being drawn here are about 'lack of leadership', annoying GAs, the opportunists and careerists. in hindsight the imperial tailwind to the arab spring's movement of squares, which OWS consciously imitated, was probably underestimated at the time as an explanation for why those prolonged insurrections succeeded and ours failed like most have failed. and then there's its class composition, how its major novel demand was a debt jubilee for tuition and mortgages, benefiting the specific people who could buy land and get accepted to college in amerika between 1980 and 2010.



i don't think the arab spring is really a good example of a successful protest model. its not surprising amerika's movement of squares-imitation accomplished as much as most of the movements in north afrika & middle east, ie nothing. the most successful insurrections were completed within a matter of weeks; those that were prolonged either accomplished nothing, achieved modest or token reforms, shuffled around top posts in their governments, or most notably became entry points for imperialist projects to destroy the state that took all momentum and control out of the hands of the crowds in city squares

i don't know where you've gotten the idea that over the last 40 years home ownership and college tuition have been whites-only settler problems. the victims of 2008 housing crisis were overwhelmingly black and latinx. the same trend holds when you're looking at who burdensome college debt disproportionately affects, though that is much more of an aristocratic concern than having a house to live in

#1729
a bunch of recently graduated 'middle class' white kids upset they can't afford to move into the suburbs because they can only find work at a coffeeshop is more of a hackneyed disparaging stereotype of occupy than a useful glimpse into its actual class composition as far as my memory goes
#1730

i don't know where you've gotten the idea that over the last 40 years home ownership and college tuition have been whites-only settler problems. the victims of 2008 housing crisis were overwhelmingly black and latinx. the same trend holds when you're looking at who burdensome college debt disproportionately affects, though that is much more of an aristocratic concern than having a house to live in



debt jubilee where 75% of the white oppressor nation gets discount land including most of the built wealth, the modern homes by schools and hospitals and parks, plus free college, and 45% of the black and chicano nations gets their tract home debts forgiven: that's racist policy dressed in progressive sheep's clothing. the purpose of studying settlers & co is being able to spot this stuff when "progressives" try to pull it.

Edited by toyot ()

#1731
so you're saying the goal was, the status quo is only moderately eroded but a lot of oppressed people aren't driven out of their homes at the same time
#1732
that's a good question, occupy was late 2011 after the peak of foreclosures. if the bank evicts and resells the house, then who owns the debt? a debt jubilee would stop future foreclosures, but distressed housing debt even in 2011 was a fraction of housing debt, and a fraction again of all debt. it would be mischaracterizing a debt jubilee as a foreclosure policy, compared to a more direct instrument like an eviction moratorium.
#1733
speaking of which the only organization that directly emerged from the local occupy thing i was familiar with was a tenants' rights / anti eviction org

though i think anti-nato/g8 also got a more vague boost too

Edited by 招瑤 ()

#1734

招瑤 posted:

a bunch of recently graduated 'middle class' white kids upset they can't afford to move into the suburbs because they can only find work at a coffeeshop is more of a hackneyed disparaging stereotype of occupy than a useful glimpse into its actual class composition as far as my memory goes



yeah, it’s a Just-So story, an after-the-fact attempt to over-simplify a complex and ongoing process by those without knowledge of it. kind of like the attempts to mischaracterize what i’m talking about with the lessons (real) organizations learned from (real) OWS history, though, the tall tale of OWS as a movement of boojy wannabe homebuyers is so out of touch with reality that its relevance is pretty much nil. it’s really just so much online posturing for the sake of building egos. Hell,

#1735
this is what i mean though about this forum going through cycles like this. part of it may be on a turn back toward new-agey crypto-fash nihilism, but it’s been there before at least a couple times and it always recovers… not too worried, especially as public life begins to recover from plague-driven isolation. the people who think they can self-hypnotize into some transcendent state of anti-scientific socialism always lose out to the people doing things in the world, mostly because the latter group’s posts are less boring and less depressing.
#1736

cars posted:

a movement of boojy wannabe homebuyers is so out of touch with reality that its relevance is pretty much nil


glad you're getting out and talking to people. good luck in your work.

Edited by toyot ()

#1737

toyot posted:

i don't think anyone would dispute what you're saying... learning about people power first-hand in street demos beats hearing about it. it's possible after getting called every nasty thing he could think of, that i wasn't in the mood to be charitable to cars. but click his post again and read the first half. aside from whether the lesson was new to OWS, it isn't even true that "the only space truly "occupied", truly secured, (is) the space underneath people's feet while they (are) still standing up." -- insurrections around the world build barricades to hold area for weeks w/o physically filling the area with boots, just the perimeter. if OWS taught the lesson he said, then it was a false lesson. and the question could have been tested more forcefully by actually building and manning barricades. that really wasn't the mood tho, the two occupations i went to had zero barricades. OWS survived for weeks on the graces of the police, who eventually treated it like a nationally-coordinated homeless encampment raid, and it took them weeks not because of any military strategy on the part of the occupiers, just the political reality that wall street is unpopular, so destroying the camp would be unpopular. so they waited till the novelty wore off. anyway, the lesson is neither new or true.

maybe cars was making the maoist critique of insurrection, that 19th and 20th century history wrote in blood that urban insurrection is a failed war strategy, and slowly building red zones in the countryside and surrounding the cities (peoples war) is the successful one. i'm not sure that's the automatic conclusion everyone drew from OWS. the conclusions i see being drawn here are about 'lack of leadership', annoying GAs, the opportunists and careerists. in hindsight the imperial tailwind to the arab spring's movement of squares, which OWS consciously imitated, was probably underestimated at the time as an explanation for why those prolonged insurrections succeeded and ours failed like most have failed. and then there's its class composition, how its major novel demand was a debt jubilee for tuition and mortgages, benefiting the specific people who could buy land and get accepted to college in amerika between 1980 and 2010.

but yes, to what you said, showdowns with the cops are important for every young lefty to witness and participate in! especially when we push them back and show everyone they're just men.


i think you're reading that post as making grand sweeping statements about The Way Things Work Everywhere when cars actually seems to be talking about the specific dynamics he's observed in orgs local to him and the lessons they learned from OWS.

#1738
Just thinking about the Taliban’s “de-facto leader” (WaPo’s words) who started his career fighting the soviets as a mujahideen, got caught by the cia/Pakistani forces, spent 8 years in prison and then took over at the diplomatic base that the US helped set up for the taliban in Qatar. I wonder how the other taliban leaders felt about him taking the lead role in talking with the head of the cia about the future of Afghanistan. Maybe a little slighted after all the years some of them put in at Guantanamo?

Edited by solidar ()

#1739
“ISIS-K” = CIA
#1740

solidar posted:

Maybe a little slighted after all the years some of them put in at Guantanamo?


to be fair, guantanamo was mostly full of just regular guys

#1741
That was a reference to the “taliban 5” - by all accounts I’ve seen leaders within the group that were released into Qatar in 2014 and by some accounts have been involved in some of the negotiations with the US or leading the group inside Afghanistan recently
#1742

cars posted:

“ISIS-K” = CIA



Many we spoke to, including eyewitnesses, said significant numbers of those killed were shot dead by US forces
#1743
"Somehow, I saw amerikan soldiers and beside them were turkish soldiers. The fire came from the bridge, from the towers."

"From the soldiers?"

"Yeah from the soldiers."
#1744
just making sure i'm not misremembering, since it's been most of a decade since this has come up. but the "K" in "ISIS-K" is "Khorasan," which is the group alleged to be operating in Syria that came under some scrutiny mid-decade for probably-not-even-actually-existing

https://www.ft.com/content/075b888a-48b6-11e4-9d04-00144feab7de:

Khorasan, it turns out, exists and does not exist at the same time. The name coined by the US – the first appearance was in The New York Times a few days before the strikes – refers to a cell of veteran al-Qaeda operatives with bomb-making expertise who were apparently sent to Syria by Ayman al-Zawahiri, the al-Qaeda chief and successor to Osama bin Laden, to work with the Nusrah Front. The US strikes are believed to have killed Muhsin al-Fadli, the cell’s leader, who was very close to bin Laden.

What is less clear, however, is that this cell refers to itself as the Khorasan group – or that it considers itself a cell at all.



https://theintercept.com/2014/09/28/u-s-officials-invented-terror-group-justify-bombing-syria/

There are serious questions about whether the Khorasan Group even exists in any meaningful or identifiable manner. Aki Peritz, a CIA counterterrorism official until 2009, told Time: “I’d certainly never heard of this group while working at the agency,” while Obama’s former U.S. ambassador to Syria Robert Ford said: “We used the term inside the government, we don’t know where it came from….All I know is that they don’t call themselves that.” As The Intercept was finalizing this article, former terrorism federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy wrote in National Review that the group was a scam: “You haven’t heard of the Khorosan Group because there isn’t one. It is a name the administration came up with, calculating that Khorosan … had sufficient connection to jihadist lore that no one would call the president on it.”



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/25/the-strange-story-behind-the-khorasan-groups-name/?itid=lk_inline_manual_11

While there have been reports of groups in Pakistan taking on the Khorasan label, analysts cast doubt that the term is being widely used within Syria to refer to any distinct group. “There have been no jihadis in Syria or to use that name when referring to themselves," Zelin said. "Some online jihadis have even characterized it as laughable."

Pieter van Ostaeyen, a historian and blogger who follows jihadist movements, writes in an e-mail that "in all of the official Jihadi accounts I follow(ed), the name never was mentioned."



intel community rebooting that play that petered out last time. "it's such a good word," sources say. "seems a shame to waste it"

#1745
United $naKKKe$ finally leaving Afghanistan.... but......... wait!!! what's that! K, K....... Khorasan?!?!?! *fade in drumroll from Ghostbusters theme*
#1746
omg the power vacuum i set up has become a power vacuum
#1747

cars posted:

United $naKKKe$ finally leaving Afghanistan.... but......... wait!!! what's that! K, K....... Khorasan?!?!?! *fade in drumroll from Ghostbusters theme*



Cant spell amerikkka without at least one k

#1748
isis-kkk.. don't we have a subforum for that sort of thing
#1749
A more accurate name for IS-K is IS-Anaquashatanik
#1750
the 'K' in 'ISIS-K' stands for Ketamine
#1751

Constantignoble posted:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/25/the-strange-story-behind-the-khorasan-groups-name/?itid=lk_inline_manual_11

While there have been reports of groups in Pakistan taking on the Khorasan label, analysts cast doubt that the term is being widely used within Syria to refer to any distinct group. “There have been no jihadis in Syria or to use that name when referring to themselves," Zelin said. "Some online jihadis have even characterized it as laughable."

Pieter van Ostaeyen, a historian and blogger who follows jihadist movements, writes in an e-mail that "in all of the official Jihadi accounts I follow(ed), the name never was mentioned."


it's hard to find a good reference now but it was basically the same with al qaeda. they found out the yanks were calling them that and decided to adopt it. khorosan group just doesn't have a ring to it. sounds like something a think tank nerd would come up with

#1752
#1753
the more curious thing than the timing is the fact that they gave an interview at all, and proceeded to give answers that might as well have come from a CIA script (we're psychos who chop people up with axes for fun, we're going to swing into action as soon as you foreigners are gone, i can neither confirm nor deny that we have international ambitions). like, what's the PR angle here? please stick around and blow us all up before we have too much fun?
#1754
here's an interesting article talking about the CIA's death squads in Afghanistan(the article notes similarities to the phoenix program in how these operated). note the bit at the end strongly implying that these death squads and 'ISIS-K' are the same thing!

https://thecradle.co/Article/investigations/1401 posted:

The shadow army are Afghan militias set up back in the early 2000s to engage in ‘counter-insurgency’ – that lovely euphemism for search and destroy ops against the Taliban and al-Qaeda. Along the way, these militias practiced, in droves, that proverbial semantic combo normalizing murder: ‘extrajudicial killings,’ usually a sequel to ‘enhanced interrogations.’ These ops were always secret as per the classic CIA playbook, thus ensuring there was never any accountability.
...
Inevitably, CIA and JSOC got into a catfight over controlling the top militias. That was solved by the Pentagon lending Special Forces to the CIA under the Omega Program. Under Omega, the CIA was tasked with targeting intel, and Special Ops took control of the muscle on the ground. Omega made steady progress under the reign of former US President Barack Obama: it was eerily similar to the Vietnam-era Operation Phoenix.

Ten years ago, the CIA army, dubbed Counter-terrorist Pursuit Teams (CTPT), was already 3,000 strong, paid and weaponized by the CIA-JSOC combo. There was nothing ‘counter-insurgency’ about it: These were death squads, much like their earlier counterparts in Latin America in the 1970s.
...
The Taliban may be essentially a collection of warlords (jang salar, in Dari). But what’s certain is that a new government will simply not allow a militia wasteland scenario similar to Libya. Thousands of mercenaries of sorts with the potential of becoming an ersatz ISIS-Khorasan, threatening Afghanistan’s entry into the Eurasian integration process, need to be tamed.

#1755
it’s funny that ISIS-K is basically what the government pretends ETIM is (fake non-terrorists who don’t exist)
#1756
There is no real way to find evidence for this but I feel like some sizable amount of current U.S. security/intelligence agency plans are generated from 1) attempts to embody Hollywood fictions about the agencies, including critical ones, the same way a bunch of Troops worshipfully repeat-watch Full Metal Jacket; and 2) the continued attempt to "match" imagined activities of the enemy—along the lines of the CIA's bizarre attempts at mind-control experiments in "response" to the supposed need by the USSR's government of some sort of mind-control ray to maintain their position—where those fantasies are simultaneously used to ensure no-questions-asked increases in funding year over year for the agency. So to me it is probably a self-perpetuating phenomenon where the constant creation of "terrorist" organizations abroad is seen as matching the enemy in some sort of secret second Cold War against foes that, in reality, have neither the motive nor the freedom of resources to rival Washington's efforts in that area, an illusion that exists almost purely within the Congressional budget.
#1757
But speculation on motives aside, like... if we're going to be materialists, I don't think we should underestimate how much of current policy is still shaped by institutional memory of the utter panic that swept through the alphabet agencies when the USSR collapsed and the phrase "peace dividend" started floating around public policy circles. The United States public has, for instance, widely adopted completely deluded and wrong ideas about, say, contemporary Russian or Chinese military spending compared to the U.S. and believes that these are somehow comparable. Maintaining those beliefs seems to require constant intense propagandistic upkeep by U.S. intelligence/security services, to the extent that during the last five years or so they have emerged into the dangerous territory of public acknowledgment of their domestic manipulation of elections and government, e.g. presenting the last administration as somehow a means for Russia to dominate the United States, an utter absurdity that's materially impossible. Securing the news media for CIA/State/DoD/etc., as we've seen reflected in reporting on Afghanistan by an otherwise Biden-whitewashing news press, is symptomatic of both that and the opportunity provided by the shuttering of foreign bureaus by most news sources impoverished by the Internet (yet another DoD/intelligence agency project).
#1758
lol at everything
#1759
American journalist keeping a perfect poker face as he soberly listens to "Captain Evil Blood" monologue into the camera about his ambitions to cast Afghanistan into the 87th layer of the Abyss using the Hand of Vecna and how the only thing that could possibly stop him is a 16th level Cleric casting Summon Drone
#1760
With unprecedented and exclusive access, VICE News journalist and filmmaker Medyan Dairieh spent three weeks filming alone inside the self-proclaimed caliphate of the Islamic State.