#16481

toyotathon posted:

reading about erik olin wright, wtf is analytical marxism. and if you die as an academic do colleagues write your eulogy about themselves? counted 50+ first-person pronouns, liberalometer absolutely blaring


analytical marxism was an attempt to engage with mainstream liberal political philosophy by restating the basic insights of marxism in a series of clearly stated premises. this would allow the people involved to argue back and forth with rawlsians and such about things like distribution of goods or whatever. it was partially a reaction to the dominance of marxist theories that focused on culture, and partially a reaction to trying to rebuild marxism after the perceived collapse of the credibility of 'actually existing socialism'. it did not really work out but it's basically still one of the only forms of self-described socialism you'll find in mainstream/liberal philosophy departments.

erik olin wright himself was very focused on envisioning socialist-inspired institutions that could operate within the framework of liberal-democracy and a market economy. like he wanted to be "realistic" and offer policy changes that he could actually see happening in his lifetime i guess. that made him seem very relevant when everyone decided socialism was over, and this sort of "realistic utopia" stuff is deeply influential on things like labour uk's plans i think, but obviously it is not that relevant to our actual eco-apocalypse earth.

#16482

getfiscal posted:

argue back and forth with rawlsians


I know this web site is a Trolling Encouraged Zone for the most fucked up ideas imaginable but this is a step too far

#16483
did you guys know that you can grab books in pieces off jstor if you have access to it? i found hella cambodia books that i couldn't get anywhere else on there. dont tell the jstor people i did this though, i dont want to be killed by the academic book swat team
#16484
i finished "the left hand of darkness", it was pretty good!
#16485
im gonna start "divine days" by leon forrest as soon as i find a copy
#16486

c_man posted:

im gonna start "divine days" by leon forrest as soon as i find a copy


that is a good book but it is probably a good idea to read some of his earlier work first, if you haven't already. the earlier stuff is all like insanely cool concentrated prose and divine days is much looser and digressive

#16487
well i cant find ebooks of anything written by him so i may be limited by whatever the local library can scrounge up from ILL. i was also thinking about starting with "a tree more ancient than eden" so maybe ill find that first
#16488
First smoking gun of Russiagate - it was the Dems all along surprise surprise https://theintercept.com/2019/02/03/nbc-news-to-claim-russia-supports-tulsi-gabbard-relies-on-firm-just-caught-fabricating-russia-data-for-the-democratic-party/
#16489
Wrong thread
#16490
Baudrillard's the Agony of Power. I was always rather non-committal about whether most of these post-structuralists were hacks, but this makes a pretty good case. Apparently allowing some machines to make decisions is worse than Korea being nuked to oblivion...
#16491
are there any modern american liberal foundational texts that actually could be read as an intelligent person articulating a coherent global political philosophy --- the kind of thing that someone who might consider themselves an "intelligent person" and an american democrat would use to e.g. rationalize "austerity", IMF, coups, etc to themselves?

reading that kind of thing sounds like getting a dunk tank treatment in a vat of sewage but i'm curious if it exists for liberals at all -- these attempts at internal consistency seem to exist on the self-described right, but i haven't really encountered whatever the msnbc crowd would use for the same thing. or maybe it's just thomas friedman.
#16492
only thing i can think of is paul krugman's 1st year macro-econ textbook. global political philosophy is subset of bloodless trade for a vox writer. the standard attitude about empire is denial and narrow moral condemnation. republicans usually control government so amerikan democrats rationalize all the bad things that way. or when their party's in charge, as 'betrayal', or as a failed olive branch. isn't there a guy here who keeps saying obama deported all those kids to appease republicans? that's part of the ideology. they are deathly afraid of being called conspiracists and so don't imagine grand strategy. no modern systemic analysis i've seen, sorry. the US right's internal consistency isn't scientific (the more consistent the more esoteric) but yah they're naming then stringing all the big concepts together.
#16493

drwhat posted:

are there any modern american liberal foundational texts that actually could be read as an intelligent person articulating a coherent global political philosophy --- the kind of thing that someone who might consider themselves an "intelligent person" and an american democrat would use to e.g. rationalize "austerity", IMF, coups, etc to themselves?

reading that kind of thing sounds like getting a dunk tank treatment in a vat of sewage but i'm curious if it exists for liberals at all -- these attempts at internal consistency seem to exist on the self-described right, but i haven't really encountered whatever the msnbc crowd would use for the same thing. or maybe it's just thomas friedman.

The first thing I thought of was comedy Michael Ignatieff option. Stuff like 'Empire Lite' where he says things like empire is bad but there are some problems with only imperial solutions. A lot of the 'Washington Consensus' sorts of texts were like this as well. The main thing I guess is that liberals tend to see things like "austerity" as a painful *reaction* to bad government and not like a decision in itself. Like the real problem was that leftists ran up debts, liberals are the ones actually willing to fix the problem like adults. Like bombing a country is a tragic solution to a humanitarian crisis caused by someone else. So most of the books they write about it are like... this African tribe is getting wiped out, would you want to help? That's why we need the capability to project force... not because of bad Republican reasons....

#16494
im reading "there is a tree more ancient than eden" by leon forrest and its pretty great so far. its closer to stream of consciousness than anything ive read in a while so its a really fun mental exercise even though im not that far into it yet. stream of consciousness is probably the wrong term but i dont have a lit degree so someone else can correct me
#16495

c_man posted:

im reading "there is a tree more ancient than eden" by leon forrest and its pretty great so far. its closer to stream of consciousness than anything ive read in a while so its a really fun mental exercise even though im not that far into it yet. stream of consciousness is probably the wrong term but i dont have a lit degree so someone else can correct me


iirc there is some stuff there that is kind of stream of conciousness, but the most obvious influence is faulker's high modernist stuff, like compare some of the sentences from absalom absalom for example. i dont have a lit degree either, for the record.

#16496
I'm reading Oryx & Crake in preparation for the world to come. Not very far in but p good.
#16497

lo posted:

iirc there is some stuff there that is kind of stream of conciousness, but the most obvious influence is faulker's high modernist stuff, like compare some of the sentences from absalom absalom for example. i dont have a lit degree either, for the record.


ive never read anything by faulker, so i dont really have anything to compare to

#16498

lo posted:

iirc there is some stuff there that is kind of stream of conciousness, but the most obvious influence is faulker's high modernist stuff, like compare some of the sentences from absalom absalom for example. i dont have a lit degree either, for the record.



you've read nearly every novel mentioned ITT. you have the people's lit degree

#16499
I’m 650 pages into War and Peace and Napoleon is just now invading Russia.
#16500

toyotathon posted:

lo posted:


iirc there is some stuff there that is kind of stream of conciousness, but the most obvious influence is faulker's high modernist stuff, like compare some of the sentences from absalom absalom for example. i dont have a lit degree either, for the record.



you've read nearly every novel mentioned ITT. you have the people's lit degree


thats a nice thing to say but i feel like ive barely read anything.. theres so many cool writers i haven't even touched yet. im thinking about writing an 'effort post' about this one guy who im currently reading who is relevant to this forum, possibly i'll even get to it within the next 5 years so stay tuned

#16501
Did you know systemic global corruption is Russia's fault too? Please enjoy this article about how a CIA guy tried to warn us decades ago, and we just wouldn't listen.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/how-kleptocracy-came-to-america/580471/

What was at stake could well be systemic contagion: Russian values might infect and then weaken the moral defense systems of American politics and business.

#16502

Petrol posted:

What was at stake could well be systemic contagion: Russian values might infect and then weaken the moral defense systems of American politics and business.


#16503

JohnBeige posted:

I'm reading Oryx & Crake in preparation for the world to come. Not very far in but p good.


when you're done, if you want to read a better version check out Windup Girl, or pretty much anything by Bacigalupi

#16504

getfiscal posted:

The first thing I thought of was comedy Michael Ignatieff option. Stuff like 'Empire Lite' where he says things like empire is bad but there are some problems with only imperial solutions.


On first glance I assumed you made up the book title as part of the joke, but then I had the horrible thought that I should check. Wow. Canada is dumb but at least that guy faceplanted politically.

#16505
i just keep reading this: Russian values might infect and then weaken the moral defense systems of American politics and business
#16506
our precious bodily fluids
#16507
im reading Walter Mosely lately, it's some good stuff (specifically the Socrates Fortlow series)

Edited by animedad ()

#16508
me: i dont really need this book
amazon: have you considered that the book is... 420 pages
#16509
Reading wages of destruction. Has anyone gotten around to Tooze’s new book Crashed?
#16510
look for study examples, whats the best way to study, for you, how do you study, what works and what does not; how much books do you read, do you like to read, what makes you not like reading? how do you get better at reading, just asking questions
#16511
also i went to the charity bookshop and mixed up with all the books they had a copy of Iamblicus's "on the mysteries of the egyptians chaldeans and assyrians" which is like finding a unicorn in your local park
#16512

karphead posted:

tears posted:

if you want to write something serious about this i will put it up on the Extras page of EPoP


i dont think i can bring myself to, but basically half my complaints are the same as fape said in the original thread (please do not bump), strange how things go in circles. Politzers schema of: benighted savages ----progress----> wise and smart atheists is some wacky eurocentricism, and i think is a bad way to look at things. It reminds me of Marx's universal progression of society outline: slave -> feudal -> capitalism; which is also pretty eurocentric, as e.g. walter rodney & robert biel have highlighted, and is strongly male historical narative dominated as e.g. female hisotrians like silvia federici and maria mies have called into question with lots of evidence(they're right). In fact marx moved away from this in later life as he started to understand that "yes they killed hundreds of thousands but it ushered in the capitalist age therefor it was progressive" is a fucked up way to think.

and secondly it was written at a time when the universe was considered to be eternal thus refuting the "first cause" argument, and this formed a pillar of atheist theory (see also e.g Bertrand Russell & so on); now, with the discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation we know that it at least had some sort of beginning so part 2.1 falls really flat as it is basically just a series of quotes from engels which are useful, but the way they are used to justify the final statement is... *struggling for a word*...... i guess i would call it... idk, basic, wrong, unsound, quaint even... something like that

Edited by tears ()

#16513
maybe that comes across as smug considering the guy was literally murdered my the nazis for what he wrote... sorry politzer, forgive me my criticism
#16514
When he saw me approaching the door of his tent, the drummer stopped his clamor. “Only an aes to see him. Two to speak with him. Three to be alone with him.”
“Alone for how long?” I asked as I selected three copper aes. A wry grin crossed the drummer’s face. “For as long as you wish.” I handed him his money and stepped inside.
It had been plain he had not thought I would want to stay long, and I expected a stench or something equally unpleasant. There was nothing beyond a slight odor as of hay curing. In the center of the tent, in a dust-spangled shaft of sunlight admitted by a vent in the canvas roof, was chained a man the color of pale jade. He wore a kilt of leaves, now fading; beside him stood a clay pot filled to the brim with clear water.
For a moment we were silent. I stood looking at him. He sat looking at the ground. “That’s not paint,” I said. “Nor do I think it dye. And you have no more hair than the man I saw dragged from the sealed house.”
He looked up at me, then down again. Even the whites of his eyes held a greenish tint.
I tried to bait him. “If you are truly vegetable, I would think your hair should be grass.”
“No.” He had a soft voice, saved from womanishness only by its depth.
“You are vegetable then? A speaking plant?”
“You are no countryman.”
“I left Nessus a few days ago.”
“With some education.”
I thought of Master Palaemon, then of Master Malrubius and my poor Thecla, and I shrugged. “I can read and write.”
“Yet you know nothing about me. I am not a talking vegetable, as you should be able to see. Even if a plant were to follow the one evolutionary way, out of some many millions, that leads to intelligence, it is impossible that it should duplicate in wood and leaf the form of a human being.”
“The same thing might be said of stones, yet there are statues.”
For all his aspect of despair (and his was a sadder face by far than my friend Jonas’s), something tugged at the corners of his lips. “That is well put. You have no scientific training, but you are better taught than you realize.”
“On the contrary, all my training has been scientific—although it had nothing to do with these fantastic speculations. What are you?”
“A great seer. A great liar, like every man whose foot is in a trap.”
“If you’ll tell me what you are, I’ll endeavor to help you.”
He looked at me, and it was as if some tall herb had opened eyes and shown a human face. “I believe you,” he said. “Why is it that you, of all the hundreds who come to this tent, know pity?”
“I know nothing of pity, but I have been imbued with a respect for justice, and I am well acquainted with the alcalde of this village. A green man is still a man; and if he is a slave, his master must show how he came to that state, and how he himself came into possession of him.”
The green man said, “I’m a fool, I suppose, to put any confidence in you. And yet I do. I am a free man, come from your own future to explore your age.”
“That is impossible.”
“The green color that puzzles your people so much is only what you call pond scum. We have altered it until it can live in our blood, and by its intervention have at last made our peace in humankind’s long struggle with the sun. In us, the tiny plants live and die, and our bodies feed from them and their dead and require no other nourishment. All the famines, and all the labor of growing food, are ended.”
“But you must have sun.”
“Yes,” the green man said. “And I have not enough here. Day is brighter in my age.”
That simple remark thrilled me in a way that nothing had since I had first glimpsed the unroofed chapel in the Broken Court of our Citadel. “Then the New Sun comes as prophesied,” I said, “and there is indeed a second life for Urth—if what you say is the truth.”
The green man threw back his head and laughed. Much later I was to hear the sound the alzabo makes as it ranges the snowswept tablelands of the high country; its laughter is horrible, but the green man’s was more terrible, and I drew away from him. “You’re not a human being,” I said. “Not now, if you ever were.”
#16515

tears posted:

maybe that comes across as smug considering the guy was literally murdered my the nazis for what he wrote... sorry politzer, forgive me my criticism



he would welcome it more than anyone, but yeah, as long as you keep in mind that this was an outline of his course work and not a final draft or anything i don't mind putting up a reasoned critique

#16516
I'm reading Tucker Carlson's "Ship of Fools" and it's white supremacist propaganda. It's like if you read Settlers, but you thought degenerately selfish white society and ethnic cleansing for better wages was an actual good thing.
#16517
Reading up about possibly the only good Trotskyist group ever, Saor Eire. They used to rob banks to fund the IRA and nationalists in the North of Ireland

https://irishrepublicanmarxisthistoryproject.wordpress.com/2019/02/16/frank-keane-a-dedicated-trotskyist/?fbclid=IwAR32dR4UW1qYQSiwV_rmhYbN4P9qV6mkya-nWox5PfgF6soXFNpbJTd1_Gw
#16518
i bought mary daly's "gyn/ecology" and opened it at random to read the words "this rapist society". i am looking forward to reading it; it has chapters called things like "sado-ritual syndrome: the re-enactment of goddess murder" - I know she was "anti-trans" but I tend to root the problems of the second wave of radical feminism in that they couldnt come to grips with the "ruling class, ruling race, ruling gender" tri-circle intersection thingy (for e.g. she didn't read settlers) - im sure theres some set theory notation for this - ruling set theory
#16519
reading bruce cohen's "psychiatric hegemony: a marxist theory of mental illness". really well done and goes beyond the normal critique of the mental health industry by discussing it as a direct arm of neoliberal power, rather than the more common, safer critique of the industry being some vague and autonomous corporate apparatus that profiteers off of itself and happens to be oppressive. he is not a mental health worker, which helps the book, as most criticisms that i have read have been written cautiously from within the so-called field. he also still refers to all psychiatrists as alienists lol

not able to find a version online, but if anyone's interested, i recently learned that one of the university libraries here has a book scanner, so i could make a digital version
#16520

serafiym posted:

I'm reading Tucker Carlson's "Ship of Fools" and it's white supremacist propaganda. It's like if you read Settlers, but you thought degenerately selfish white society and ethnic cleansing for better wages was an actual good thing.


In other news on this glaring and dangerous success at agitprop against specifically nonwhite immigrants, Wikileaks and Ro Khanna signal boosted it because it had a barely anti-war section that Carlson posted on "The American Conservative"'s website. But we need to be "class-first" obviously and not be so sectarian.