#161
I tried to find the ancient argument i had with toyotathon that he's accusing me of having pre-sakai settler chauvinist landowner politics over and i think it was just this discussion where i made the fairly trivial point that choosing to rent over buying property in occupied lands isn't an act that undermines settlerism in any way?
#162

blinkandwheeze posted:

toyotathon i think you should think about taking a break from posting right now because you seem angry to the point of genuinely concerning hysteria.



oh my gosh, you're such a smug prick. my favorite part about your trot infection is how deep down, you don't believe political discussions matter. everything's a sterile debate club, where the stakes are zero, that we've entered a realm free of ideology, or pure reason. because you've internalized the booj idea that our class has no real power.

#163
i think the stakes are zero because we're on an irrelevant internet message board. these discussions have even less impact than a debate club. i'd understand calls for propriety if we were publishing forward facing discussions as part of an organised communist party or whatever but we're just making dumb posts on a tiny impenetrable irony offsite. posting isn't praxis and this isn't a political battlefield. you're treating an internet argument with so much more weight than it deserves to the point you're accusing people of really ridiculous things over tiny perceived slights.
#164
sorry toyotathon + cars but i already invited bnw and tears to the bbq. if you dont like them you dont have to come.
#165

blinkandwheeze posted:

i think the stakes are zero because we're on an irrelevant internet message board. these discussions have even less impact than a debate club. i'd understand calls for propriety if we were publishing forward facing discussions as part of an organised communist party or whatever but we're just making dumb posts on a tiny impenetrable irony offsite. posting isn't praxis and this isn't a political battlefield.



second to going to work, posting here's probably the most political act ppl do in a day. but it's only second b/c going to work's an extremely political act.

#166

this vile kountry deserves my ony attention. go make class war where you stand and shut the fuck up about amerikkka's imperial targets, trot slime.



finally, you get straight to the point. I find it quite facile to compare China's position today as similar to that of 2002 saddam and I dont really feel any compunction about denouncing this or that thing it has done in a practically closed-door discussion on a forum where the consensus is that china should not be touched by the global cracker capitalist mafia and any attempts to attack it by the cabal should be unmasked. all i ask is that you remember the "critical" part of critical support. All this stuff about cointelpro and the state department or whatever is warranted if you were talking to people who didnt already go out of their way to try and seek alternative sources of information... i think this has devolved into pure "how dare you"ism, lazy analogy to instances where liberals parroted regime change propaganda, and "shut the fuck up whitey", which i dont object to and find funny to tell people, but usually as ridicule and not as an actual defense against their inquiries

#167

Caesura109 posted:

I dont really feel any compunction about denouncing this or that thing it has done in a practically closed-door discussion on a forum where the consensus is that china should not be touched by the global cracker capitalist mafia and any attempts to attack it by the cabal should be unmasked. all i ask is that you remember the "critical" part of critical support. All this stuff about cointelpro and the state department or whatever is warranted if you were talking to people who didnt already go out of their way to try and seek alternative sources of information...



i sent you a PM 2 days ago that i was sick of this thread and i thought you got my gist, but this is like reply #5, and so many downvotes... i count each bnw downvote as a victory and look forward to cashing my punch card of chauvinist disapproval in after the rev for a walk-in closet, but yours are more meaningful. i still don't want to engage w you on this, and anything i'd say was said better here, anyway https://rhizzone.net/forum/topic/14698/?page=1#post-380251 you are welcome to put as many critical support asterisks on your ideology as you please, but what an exhausting task. we're just here for diff reasons. cheers

#168
dude i don't think you even believe the accusations of chauvinism you're levelling at me. as far as i can tell you started from a fairly innocuous request for me to moderate my tone to doubling down on really venomous insults at any objection to your posts. just a few pages ago you were telling me the stakes aren't high here and not to treat this like a battleground and you've moved on to chiding me for not taking these discussions seriously enough.

i don't particularly care what you think of me but i do care that you've been implicitly throwing these insults at pretty much anyone who disagrees with you. which in this case is largely new posters who have been discussing things in completely good faith. like take a step back and see that most people are objecting to the way that you're conducting yourself in these discussions. Caesura rocks and i love our noobs, i will defend them to the death
#169
you keep trying to speak for other posters here, that you say i've insulted, when they're perfectly able to speak for themselves. what sort of politics is that like.
#170
they have spoken up against you, i'm just agreeing with them? did you miss Caesura's post explaining his motivations for engaging in this discussion to defend himself against your accusations?
#171
do you want to keep talking about this, or do you wanna just call it.
#172
i think we should be cautious about reducing questions of socialist construction to geopolitics/where we side on blocs competing for hegemony. other users have put as much better. the most familiar i've gotten with this question is reading stuff 'china: a modern social imperialist power' and 'political economy of counterrevolution in china 1976-1988', which i'll def have to revisit.
that is all.
#173

toyotathon posted:

do you want to keep talking about this, or do you wanna just call it.


Not really. I hate discussions about discussions with all my heart and i thought i could engage in them to vanquish them once and for all but this was hopelessly naive. Alas,

#174
Once the discussion has become about the discussing of discussions, we should put it to rest. Mods nuke thread pls
#175
taht's true but i think it also rewards people who want kick up sand in bad faith rather than let discussion on these subjects happen.
#176

toyotathon posted:

do you want to keep talking about this, or do you wanna just call it.


#177
lol, i thought i was the crazy one here
#178

tears posted:

lol, i thought i was the crazy one here


can i join witch crew please.

#179
are you a witch?

Edited by tears ()

#180
i feel like the people worthy of joining witch crew probably already know the proper rites to perform and don't have to ask.
#181
just because im a witch i can't be polite?
#182
Yes.
#183
amerika had its time to negotiate with the witches who were willing to be polite. that time was the 16th and 17th centuries.
#184
perhaps a more productive avenue for discussion is how a future communist state would reconcile different ethnic groups with different beliefs to work together towards a mutually beneficial society?
the soviet union also suffered from accusations of russian chauvinism, which they attempted to correct with promoting different ethnic groups and their languages, although this did suffer from starts and stops as different outside conditions imposed themselves.
one of the great strengths of communism over most other political currents is the internationalism and anti-racism, and the soviet union was instrumental in fighting imperialism through its educating poor people with its universities of the poor toilers of the east, and many of those students ended up going back to their countries and promoting anti-imperialism.
this is a tremendously beneficial method, and it has obvious propaganda use as well, especially compared to the school of the americas.

as well, i think it's important to point out, though i'm sure all know, that its not like the american spy community is not beyond promoting radical islamist groups as a way to destabilise socialist countries and there may be something to china's concerns about this minority on its borders. if you believe that this reaction is heavy-handed, then what are the appropriate methods that they should take to protect themselves from this threat? it's not like the western intelligence apparatus is beyond weaponising civil rights, in fact it has been one of the major ways to attack states attempting the road to communism.

its obvious that this attack is so successful because leftists correctly believe they should be better about these kind of things. so the question becomes, what are the appropriate way to respond to these attacks? it's facile to compare them to how the west responds to terrorist attacks (invading unrelated countries, killing thousands, travel bans) but what is the correct way to defend yourselves?

lastly i should point out though this forum is quite small, it seems likely that our effect is somewhat outsized, since plenty of people may read without registering, and good arguments here can be weaponised and used on other, more popular mediums. to this effect, carrying on grudges against other posters that are esoteric in their beginnings serve no purpose and prevent new posters from feeling like they will be accepted if they post. if you have a genuine complaint about another posters politics, post a clearly labeled denunciation thread and express your feelings, so that they can be debated or defended, and a forum consensus reached. thus we can run out posters whose political beliefs are poison to our community, as well as correcting potentially good posters who have some troublesome beliefs absorbed through being raised in a world where bourgeois thinking is dominant.
#185

blinkandwheeze posted:

toyotathon i think you should think about taking a break from posting right now because you seem angry to the point of genuinely concerning hysteria.



i actually agree with the majority of what's been posted in this thread (even where apparently contradictory) in different qualified ways, but i don't think "u mad?" has ever done something positive for a discussion

#186

Constantignoble posted:

i actually agree with the majority of what's been posted in this thread (even where apparently contradictory) in different qualified ways, but i don't think "u mad?" has ever done something positive for a discussion


i would be more inclined to agree if there werent a history of multiple posters having psychotic breaks on this forum. if someone wants to cash in their rhizzone arguing cred post rev, even as a joke about having done "important work" of denouncing a nobody for no benefit, i think thats a sign that they've lost an important level of perspective about posting here and should take some time to reconsider their priorities.

Edited by c_man ()

#187

c_man posted:

i would be more inclined to agree if there werent a history of multiple posters having psychotic breaks on this forum. if someone wants to cash in their rhizzone arguing cred post rev, even as a joke about having done "important work" of denouncing a nobody for no benefit, i think thats a sign that they've lost an important level of perspective about posting here and should take some time to reconsider their priorities.



if you are deliberately not getting jokes in order to concern-troll over someone's health, maybe reconsider your own. kind of ableist too, but no offense taken. good intro for young marxists i guess, you're going to come under attack by libs and reactionaries in this way, getting called crazy for your views. just gotta power thru!

#188

Constantignoble posted:

i actually agree with the majority of what's been posted in this thread (even where apparently contradictory) in different qualified ways, but i don't think "u mad?" has ever done something positive for a discussion


fwiw that wasn't really an attempt at snark altho i probably could have worded it a lot better. i am genuinely disconcerted about being attacked as a reactionary pro-imperialist trot slime white settlerist landowner male chauvinist out of the blue. not that i particularly care about tone and civil rhetoric on irrelevant internet arguments but these attacks seem really deeply motivated and personal in this case which i don't really know how to react to. particularly when most of these insults are also being extended to more posters than just me, on both sides of this discussion.

#189
we all get a little worked up some times.
#190
there are pages of you going "neither washington nor beijing", the same week that the US sends 2 nuke-filled stratofortresses over the south china sea. you keep saying it's personal, but, just fix your politics! quit repeating US war propaganda about uighers, as it ramps up to capture & burn that sweet 1/7 of the world's carbon energy.
#191

toyotathon posted:

if you are deliberately not getting jokes in order to concern-troll over someone's health, maybe reconsider your own.


it's one thing to get into the ideological weeds arguing with blink, but this is just lashing out at someone in response to a personal attack they didn't actually make. i like you and i am not taking sides when i say take a step back and breathe before you continue posting.

#192
nobody here has ever repeated u.s. war propaganda about the uighers, everyone has gone out of their way to take a balanced and nuanced approach in investigating the issue. i've pretty much only deferred to other posters research and discussion on this question because i thought it was valuable. i have never argued "neither washington nor beijing" in my life and i unambiguously side with the PRC in any conflict with the arch-imperialist west, as little as my support means. i just don't believe in these cloying "defences" where critical support means an absolute refusal of basic scrutiny and investigation required to seek truth from facts. like Petrol said in an earlier post it's something China neither wants nor needs. the refusal to believe these issues can be investigated neuters and weakens whatever arguments you can offer in support of what you're trying to defend.

i don't actually think we have significantly different politics on this or any other issue and you're just reading things as a brutal political struggle, when nothing about these discussion warrants it and everyone else has just been approaching things in good faith as posting pals.
#193
been away from the ole rhizzone for a while now, time to mosey on back and see how things are going....
#194

rolaids posted:

been away from the ole rhizzone for a while now, time to mosey on back and see how things are going....


#195
boring conversation anyway
#196
I'll take some responsibility here for derailing by posting a provocation and using the word genocide. My position on China when I say what's happening in Xianjing is I think best encapsulated by me saying "a prelude" to things taking a dark turn. There are components of ethnic cleansing, not in actual extermination or population transfer but cultural destruction. Books in the local language are being suppressed allegedly. As for the title of this thread, China is communist led, is socialist etc. I look at the path it's taking though as one away from that. It's not no longer socialist, but I think if it continues along a path of Han Chauvinism that this is irreconcilable with proletarian internationalism which is an integral part of socialism. The dam has not broken yet, but there are cracks forming, and I think it's useful for communists everywhere to not ignore this.

China is socialist but it is moving further away from the promise of Mao and the Revolution. I don't think this is controversial, or at least it shouldn't be.

What I think is a useful line of enquiry is looking into the development (or degeneration) of a nationalities policy in the People's Republic. How did we get to where we are? Why is the Chinese Communist Party making the choices it is now?
#197

Parenti posted:

What I think is a useful line of enquiry is looking into the development (or degeneration) of a nationalities policy in the People's Republic. How did we get to where we are?


Very carefully.

Parenti posted:

Why is the Chinese Communist Party making the choices it is now?


Because you touch yourself at night

#198
#199
#200
Well at the very least we can always return to the fact that it was China, not Japan or any other gang member of the Anglo-led cabal, that gave us an anime biography of Karl Marx