#161
Post rating: ~
I tried to find the ancient argument i had with toyotathon that he's accusing me of having pre-sakai settler chauvinist landowner politics over and i think it was just this discussion where i made the fairly trivial point that choosing to rent over buying property in occupied lands isn't an act that undermines settlerism in any way?
#162
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#163
Post rating: +
i think the stakes are zero because we're on an irrelevant internet message board. these discussions have even less impact than a debate club. i'd understand calls for propriety if we were publishing forward facing discussions as part of an organised communist party or whatever but we're just making dumb posts on a tiny impenetrable irony offsite. posting isn't praxis and this isn't a political battlefield. you're treating an internet argument with so much more weight than it deserves to the point you're accusing people of really ridiculous things over tiny perceived slights.
#164
Post rating: +++++
sorry toyotathon + cars but i already invited bnw and tears to the bbq. if you dont like them you dont have to come.
#165
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#166
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#167
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#168
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dude i don't think you even believe the accusations of chauvinism you're levelling at me. as far as i can tell you started from a fairly innocuous request for me to moderate my tone to doubling down on really venomous insults at any objection to your posts. just a few pages ago you were telling me the stakes aren't high here and not to treat this like a battleground and you've moved on to chiding me for not taking these discussions seriously enough.

i don't particularly care what you think of me but i do care that you've been implicitly throwing these insults at pretty much anyone who disagrees with you. which in this case is largely new posters who have been discussing things in completely good faith. like take a step back and see that most people are objecting to the way that you're conducting yourself in these discussions. Caesura rocks and i love our noobs, i will defend them to the death
#169
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#170
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they have spoken up against you, i'm just agreeing with them? did you miss Caesura's post explaining his motivations for engaging in this discussion to defend himself against your accusations?
#171
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#172
drip city, baby
Post rating: +
i think we should be cautious about reducing questions of socialist construction to geopolitics/where we side on blocs competing for hegemony. other users have put as much better. the most familiar i've gotten with this question is reading stuff 'china: a modern social imperialist power' and 'political economy of counterrevolution in china 1976-1988', which i'll def have to revisit.
that is all.
#173
Post rating: ~

toyotathon posted:

do you want to keep talking about this, or do you wanna just call it.


Not really. I hate discussions about discussions with all my heart and i thought i could engage in them to vanquish them once and for all but this was hopelessly naive. Alas,

#174
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#175
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taht's true but i think it also rewards people who want kick up sand in bad faith rather than let discussion on these subjects happen.
#176
nine-elevennial
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toyotathon posted:

do you want to keep talking about this, or do you wanna just call it.


#177
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lol, i thought i was the crazy one here
#178
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tears posted:

lol, i thought i was the crazy one here


can i join witch crew please.

#179
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are you a witch?

Edited by tears ()

#180
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i feel like the people worthy of joining witch crew probably already know the proper rites to perform and don't have to ask.
#181
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just because im a witch i can't be polite?
#182
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Yes.
#183
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
amerika had its time to negotiate with the witches who were willing to be polite. that time was the 16th and 17th centuries.
#184
Post rating: +
perhaps a more productive avenue for discussion is how a future communist state would reconcile different ethnic groups with different beliefs to work together towards a mutually beneficial society?
the soviet union also suffered from accusations of russian chauvinism, which they attempted to correct with promoting different ethnic groups and their languages, although this did suffer from starts and stops as different outside conditions imposed themselves.
one of the great strengths of communism over most other political currents is the internationalism and anti-racism, and the soviet union was instrumental in fighting imperialism through its educating poor people with its universities of the poor toilers of the east, and many of those students ended up going back to their countries and promoting anti-imperialism.
this is a tremendously beneficial method, and it has obvious propaganda use as well, especially compared to the school of the americas.

as well, i think it's important to point out, though i'm sure all know, that its not like the american spy community is not beyond promoting radical islamist groups as a way to destabilise socialist countries and there may be something to china's concerns about this minority on its borders. if you believe that this reaction is heavy-handed, then what are the appropriate methods that they should take to protect themselves from this threat? it's not like the western intelligence apparatus is beyond weaponising civil rights, in fact it has been one of the major ways to attack states attempting the road to communism.

its obvious that this attack is so successful because leftists correctly believe they should be better about these kind of things. so the question becomes, what are the appropriate way to respond to these attacks? it's facile to compare them to how the west responds to terrorist attacks (invading unrelated countries, killing thousands, travel bans) but what is the correct way to defend yourselves?

lastly i should point out though this forum is quite small, it seems likely that our effect is somewhat outsized, since plenty of people may read without registering, and good arguments here can be weaponised and used on other, more popular mediums. to this effect, carrying on grudges against other posters that are esoteric in their beginnings serve no purpose and prevent new posters from feeling like they will be accepted if they post. if you have a genuine complaint about another posters politics, post a clearly labeled denunciation thread and express your feelings, so that they can be debated or defended, and a forum consensus reached. thus we can run out posters whose political beliefs are poison to our community, as well as correcting potentially good posters who have some troublesome beliefs absorbed through being raised in a world where bourgeois thinking is dominant.
#185
Post rating: ~

blinkandwheeze posted:

toyotathon i think you should think about taking a break from posting right now because you seem angry to the point of genuinely concerning hysteria.



i actually agree with the majority of what's been posted in this thread (even where apparently contradictory) in different qualified ways, but i don't think "u mad?" has ever done something positive for a discussion

#186
Post rating: +

Constantignoble posted:

i actually agree with the majority of what's been posted in this thread (even where apparently contradictory) in different qualified ways, but i don't think "u mad?" has ever done something positive for a discussion


i would be more inclined to agree if there werent a history of multiple posters having psychotic breaks on this forum. if someone wants to cash in their rhizzone arguing cred post rev, even as a joke about having done "important work" of denouncing a nobody for no benefit, i think thats a sign that they've lost an important level of perspective about posting here and should take some time to reconsider their priorities.

Edited by c_man ()

#187
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#188
Post rating: ~

Constantignoble posted:

i actually agree with the majority of what's been posted in this thread (even where apparently contradictory) in different qualified ways, but i don't think "u mad?" has ever done something positive for a discussion


fwiw that wasn't really an attempt at snark altho i probably could have worded it a lot better. i am genuinely disconcerted about being attacked as a reactionary pro-imperialist trot slime white settlerist landowner male chauvinist out of the blue. not that i particularly care about tone and civil rhetoric on irrelevant internet arguments but these attacks seem really deeply motivated and personal in this case which i don't really know how to react to. particularly when most of these insults are also being extended to more posters than just me, on both sides of this discussion.

#189
Post rating: +
we all get a little worked up some times.
#190
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#191
Post rating: +

toyotathon posted:

if you are deliberately not getting jokes in order to concern-troll over someone's health, maybe reconsider your own.


it's one thing to get into the ideological weeds arguing with blink, but this is just lashing out at someone in response to a personal attack they didn't actually make. i like you and i am not taking sides when i say take a step back and breathe before you continue posting.

#192
Post rating: +
nobody here has ever repeated u.s. war propaganda about the uighers, everyone has gone out of their way to take a balanced and nuanced approach in investigating the issue. i've pretty much only deferred to other posters research and discussion on this question because i thought it was valuable. i have never argued "neither washington nor beijing" in my life and i unambiguously side with the PRC in any conflict with the arch-imperialist west, as little as my support means. i just don't believe in these cloying "defences" where critical support means an absolute refusal of basic scrutiny and investigation required to seek truth from facts. like Petrol said in an earlier post it's something China neither wants nor needs. the refusal to believe these issues can be investigated neuters and weakens whatever arguments you can offer in support of what you're trying to defend.

i don't actually think we have significantly different politics on this or any other issue and you're just reading things as a brutal political struggle, when nothing about these discussion warrants it and everyone else has just been approaching things in good faith as posting pals.
#193
Post rating: +
been away from the ole rhizzone for a while now, time to mosey on back and see how things are going....
#194
Post rating: +++++

rolaids posted:

been away from the ole rhizzone for a while now, time to mosey on back and see how things are going....


#195
Post rating: +
boring conversation anyway
#196
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I'll take some responsibility here for derailing by posting a provocation and using the word genocide. My position on China when I say what's happening in Xianjing is I think best encapsulated by me saying "a prelude" to things taking a dark turn. There are components of ethnic cleansing, not in actual extermination or population transfer but cultural destruction. Books in the local language are being suppressed allegedly. As for the title of this thread, China is communist led, is socialist etc. I look at the path it's taking though as one away from that. It's not no longer socialist, but I think if it continues along a path of Han Chauvinism that this is irreconcilable with proletarian internationalism which is an integral part of socialism. The dam has not broken yet, but there are cracks forming, and I think it's useful for communists everywhere to not ignore this.

China is socialist but it is moving further away from the promise of Mao and the Revolution. I don't think this is controversial, or at least it shouldn't be.

What I think is a useful line of enquiry is looking into the development (or degeneration) of a nationalities policy in the People's Republic. How did we get to where we are? Why is the Chinese Communist Party making the choices it is now?
#197
Post rating: +

Parenti posted:

What I think is a useful line of enquiry is looking into the development (or degeneration) of a nationalities policy in the People's Republic. How did we get to where we are?


Very carefully.

Parenti posted:

Why is the Chinese Communist Party making the choices it is now?


Because you touch yourself at night

#198
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#199
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#200
[account deactivated]