#121
i struggle to think of any occasions when bnw has 'disciplined' a new poster. the arguments in this thread have been between established posters, and some newer posters have tended to agree with his side of the argument. but posting about posting is stupid so ill shut up now.
#122

drwhat posted:

side notes:

This was previously posted by damoj in a tiny uighur thread last year, but maybe worth reposting: A Week In Xinjiang’s Absolute Surveillance State, from a seemingly straightforward independent amateur source, a Russian-pseudonymed (and accented) guy who lives in China. He was interviewed on Radio War Nerd #160, which is free to listen to here (2h44m). He isn't the most natural interviewee at first but they do eventually get him speaking a little more freely. The ultimate conclusion seems to be around the lines of (I haven't relistened so this is from memory) more or less they don't really know what the fuck to think entirely and it's complicated.

there is also this excellent post by parenti where he digs up forum posts etc.:


Parenti posted:








Both Carl Zha and that Russian guy on RWN were pretty enlightening about the situation there.

#123
yeah the Carl Zha RWN episodes are great
#124

you've witnessed a vague rise in sentiments masking unspoken imperial allegiance, and now you've got one who says he just enjoys picking out and talking about the same global affairs that VOA does. now thrust into the vicious present put your knowledge to practice: what's going on here?



And maybe you arent white and havent lived in the west most of your life, but long enough to be well attuned to the neocolonial discourse around islamic-majority countries and have first-hand experience with anti-islamic (be that racial or religious) discrimination, as well as how mainsteam imperialist propaganda works in demonization of select states, peoples, and religions, and you also have an interest in communism, self-determination and anti-colonialism, so you become interested in a topic that is the intersection of all of these phenomena, only to be told that it is because you enjoy Amerikan liberal handwringing about evil communist states

#125
i havent enough study into either current and historical china to say anything of worth. but my dad recently told about some youtubers he watched who claimed that china will invite western entrepreneurs into the country, let them build up small businesses, and then just appropriate the companies from them and hand it off to a local. and if that's true i think that's really cool.
#126

toyotathon posted:

i guess i wasn't around on the early rhizzone but seems like this bnw guy pops up every couple months for a good internet yell or to discipline a new poster and every time he does i'm less impressed. just seems like an aggro prick, no offense.


You've been constantly accusing people of falling prey to bourgeois liberal moral handwringing, being secret crypto-trots and imperialist stooges for the intelligence agencies for voicing basic critical stances. i think you're engaging in these discussion far more aggressively and uncharitably than anyone else. i'd be happy to moderate my tone if your objections were coming from a place of good faith but i don't think me using the word "insane" a few times is even close to the attacks you're throwing out at people for the completely innocuous offence of just having a critical discussion on a subject. i'm really at a loss as to why you can't see how poisonous this lack of basic charity is, while being apparently concerned with comradely tone from others.

#127

Scrree posted:

i havent enough study into either current and historical china to say anything of worth. but my dad recently told about some youtubers he watched who claimed that china will invite western entrepreneurs into the country, let them build up small businesses, and then just appropriate the companies from them and hand it off to a local. and if that's true i think that's really cool.



i wanna smuggle nukes to so many countries just so that they can do this without fear of invasion lol

#128

pescalune posted:

colddays posted:


I have principles, but they don't involve purposelessly labeling things communist or not communist. I don't see any point in proclaiming it either way. How will deciding that China is or isn't communist change my actions and thoughts? I think China is communist today so I say "yes it's great that China has so many billionaires it's very communist of them". Tomorrow I think a bit more and realize that no, China capitalist actually so I say "Screw China's electrification of the countryside, their poverty relief efforts, and their environmental regulation overhauls, it's all just capitalist bullshit!"



What is meant by "purposelessly" here? Demarcating between what and what is not communist is surely important for communists. The point of proclaiming it either way is to avoid promulgating ideas that are harmful to the development of socialism in our own contexts, whatever that may be. If we accept that communism is desirable, and that China is communist, then we should take inspiration from their example surely. All this hand-waiving doesn't square with Marxism and the often relentless critiques Marx, Lenin etc. would employ.

Poverty relief efforts, environmental regulation overhauls...what does it matter in the longterm as long as it's strengthening the capitalist class in China, strengthening international capitalism? Is this not the basis of social fascism, mild reform to placate the masses and strengthen the bourgeoisie? I would assume as a communist you would agree that defense of capitalism spells doom for humanity no matter how many regulations are put in place. If harm reduction is all that is desirable (and I assume so, given the reference to China's "progressive" path) rather than actively seeking to dismantle capitalist relations and promulgate international communism, then may as well be a Democrat or join an NGO (assuming you are an Amerikkkan, apologies if not)



Of course it's important to figure out if some things are communist, (using "communist" as shorthand for desirable, helpful to meet social goals, etc.) but the country of China isn't one of those things. Deciding either way can't guide your thoughts or actions in any useful direction because you, your organizations, and your country can never become China. Unless you live in China of course.

We can look at aspects of China and actions by China to evaluate if they're something we might want to try. I think we can even judge if those things are good for China or not, to a limited extent. For example, if we have reliable information and we're careful about propaganda like posters here are, we can discuss China's policy towards national minorities and that can guide our thoughts and actions on that issue if we somehow have a chance of influencing it, and on similar issues in other contexts. I don't think that knowledge of those things is impossible like BHPN. But if we come to a decision on any one of those issues, that doesn't really scale directly to the question if China is communist, and whether or not China is communist or not doesn't scale down directly to the smaller questions. I'm sure you have to apply dialectical materialism to really figure out how those scales interact with each other, but I don't know how to do that very well yet. I just know that we can't do something like (communist aspects)/(capitalist aspects) and see if the ratio works out.

I'm not sure that China's advances are strengthening Chinese capitalism, but if they are, should I oppose the lifting of millions from poverty on that basis? Maybe if strengthening Chinese capitalism is ALL the reforms are doing, but I don't think anyone can claim that in good faith. If the USA institutes a 15 dollar federal minimum wage, should I oppose that since it definitely is in the service of American capitalism? I do want to see the end of capitalist relations. Harm reduction isn't enough. That's why I don't join the democrats or an NGO like you said, but I don't think voicing an opposition to China is any more helpful than voting for Bernie either.

Edited by colddays ()

#129

colddays posted:

But if we come to a decision on any one of those issues, that doesn't really scale directly to the question if China is communist, and whether or not China is communist or not doesn't scale down directly to the smaller questions.


i don't really know why the question of communist development isn't able to be scaled down directly to micro concerns. i think it's the great & most fundamental lesson of the GPCR that communist development is a matter of direct political intervention on immediate concrete issues rather than being some abstract consequence of grand scale national strategy.

Edited by blinkandwheeze ()

#130
also as a quick rejoinder to people who are so dismayed by any rhetorical focus on the shortcomings of chinese development, i think its real history of concrete socialist development and its theoretical tradition are exactly what warrants the highest scrutiny. every marxist-leninist leader has insisted on how crucial critical investigation of the advances and shortcomings of existing historical socialist development are.

like i mentioned earlier i think taking the questions of chinese socialist development absolutely seriously and holding them to their own revolutionary theoretical traditions is generally less chauvinist than cloying platitudes seeking to avoid basic scrutiny. if you can't make a distinction between the motivations of those who might be interested in an approach grounded in a consistent marxism-leninism and those of chauvinist crypto-trots then you aren't engaging in good faith. i don't really agree with any of colddays' or petrol's points but they're at least actually happy to openly and honestly discuss things.

obviously there hasn't been much effort put into deep historical dives on these questions yet in this thread. but i don't see how that can happen at all when the discussion is poisoned by the most basic broaches of a critical stance being met with endless accusations and invectives of empty bourgeois moralist hand-wringing, reiterating imperialist propaganda, white chauvinism etc. etc.
#131

blinkandwheeze posted:

obviously there hasn't been much effort put into deep historical dives on these questions yet in this thread. but i don't see how that can happen at all when the discussion is poisoned by the most basic broaches of a critical stance being met with endless accusations and invectives of empty bourgeois moralist hand-wringing, reiterating imperialist propaganda, white chauvinism etc. etc.


i think part of the problem is that some of us (myself included) have a visceral response to bald, undeveloped statements like 'china isn't communist' or 'china is doing genocide in xinjiang' because it's exactly what we're accustomed to hearing from bougie pseuds. there have been several instances of statements of that kind in lieu of "basic broaches of a critical stance". in saying this i don't mean to excuse all the accusations that have been flung around. anyway, the thread seems to be simmering down to a more potentially productive level now

#132

blinkandwheeze posted:

i think its real history of concrete socialist development and its theoretical tradition are exactly what warrants the highest scrutiny. every marxist-leninist leader has insisted on how crucial critical investigation of the advances and shortcomings of existing historical socialist development are.

like i mentioned earlier i think taking the questions of chinese socialist development absolutely seriously and holding them to their own revolutionary theoretical traditions is generally less chauvinist than cloying platitudes seeking to avoid basic scrutiny. if you can't make a distinction between the motivations of those who might be interested in an approach grounded in a consistent marxism-leninism and those of chauvinist crypto-trots then you aren't engaging in good faith. i don't really agree with any of colddays' or petrol's points but they're at least actually happy to openly and honestly discuss things.

obviously there hasn't been much effort put into deep historical dives on these questions yet in this thread. but i don't see how that can happen at all when the discussion is poisoned by the most basic broaches of a critical stance being met with endless accusations and invectives of empty bourgeois moralist hand-wringing, reiterating imperialist propaganda, white chauvinism etc. etc.



alright dude. are you applying the highest scrutiny, have you made a critical investigation into development, are you taking the question of chinese socialist development seriously, is your approach grounded in marxism-leninism, applying the method to the problem? are you doing any deep historical dives, or even a basic broach? these are your words but if you say them five times, or write them five times in a todo, the work doesn't appear as if by magic -- you actually have to do it at some point. what fun it must be to suggest work for others to do, i know a social system you'd be into. and those are some very high standards you've set for this work. we'd be interested in anything you've got that's not this trot garbage. you are still welcome to post the next page of history after mine, red army policy to the uigher national group - or anything! one link! but don't blame others here for your lack of work on it. 'discussion is poisoned' playing the victim's funny after all you rained down for pages, but sounds about white.

#133
i've made a lot of serious posts about revisionism in the past. i'm not particularly interested in reiterating these points in a discussion where the other side is refraining from making any actual concrete arguments either. i don't know why this demand for work is so one sided, while at the same time you feel comfortable to throw out endless invectives in the absence of your own defences. i'm not interested in playing the victim but i do care about people throwing out such pointed accusations against multiple posters for conducting completely reasonable discussions. again i really can't take your accusations that i've been raining down poison seriously when you're conducting yourself along these lines.
#134
#135
also i'm pretty sure i've only been prickly in this discussion against Huey, who is my arch-nemesis that i have been engaging in flamewars with for a probably very disconcerting number of years. I am on the side of the noobs.
#136
... what are you talking about, you just posted about all the work you wanted to do, and how you were going to do it. three paragraphs! i'm saying, go for it! you meant all that, right?

edit-

lo posted:

i struggle to think of any occasions when bnw has 'disciplined' a new poster. the arguments in this thread have been between established posters, and some newer posters have tended to agree with his side of the argument. but posting about posting is stupid so ill shut up now.



was thinking of spectralmarx, a new reg woman who he ran off a bit ago. male MLs screaming at women but chauvinism in our ranks, it's so inscrutable..

Edited by toyot ()

#137
never get in the middle of a bhpn/bnw fight. never. lmbo.
#138

toyotathon posted:

... what are you talking about, you just posted about all the work you wanted to do, and how you were going to do it. three paragraphs! i'm saying, go for it! you meant all that, right?


i don't know what you're saying here. i think it's necessary to conduct extensive critical investigations on these subjects but that's something we're all working through protractedly in many different discussions and personal study. i don't think that obliges anyone to conduct extensive historical prefaces of whatever arbitrary length you demand before they can start discussing these questions in the most basic manner. especially in a place where we can assume we all have a general agreement on basic principles and are capable of taking a shorthand approach to these subjects.

coming to developed conclusions on these things requires being able to discuss them honestly and openly. imposing these endless rhetorical standards on how these discussions need to be conducted, lest we be accused of your constant insults and invectives, is completely unproductive. after accusing me of swooping in to discipline new posters, you should maybe look at how besides me your invectives have been pretty much been exclusively directed at posters newer than you for daring to discuss these particular subjects

#139
oh my gosh, just post one link! educate us, wherever your study's at. i posted something from Red Star Over China on chinese/uigher, which at least situates this as not some 300-year settler conflict like aussie/indig or 400-year national oppression like white/black, any degradation is in living memory. you're not obliged to post anything, but you ARE making a lot of posts about why it's important to. so why is your next post going to be another 2 paragraphs without a link, quote, or reference, which will say study is important in words but not deeds? you can prove bphn wrong that it's unknowable, me wrong that you're failing to rise above a liberal interventionist's vox.com grasp of it. just post where your study's at, all work like this is communal, we can learn and make suggestions and pool our knowledge and help each other.
#140
there was already a good, nuanced and productive discussion on the uighur national issue here from other posters in the thread specific to that issue. i don't feel any need to add anything beyond that. how productive that discussion was is exactly why i find your immediate condemnation of such conversations to be so frustrating.
#141

toyotathon posted:

was thinking of spectralmarx, a new reg woman who he ran off a bit ago. male MLs screaming at women but chauvinism in our ranks, it's so inscrutable..


Iirc that person was insisting we approach the issues of armed contra death squads targeting naxalites with balance & nuance. which is much more objectionable a point than anything you've eagerly ran to attack new posters over here. i don't really know why anyone who objects to the people's war in india would be interested in posting here in the first place, it's pretty obvious that this position would be met with immediate pushback.

#142
male ML yells a woman poster off the forum but it's okay because she deserved it, she had a bad opinion. i think when i got here my 2nd post was how holodomor should be judged in the context of victorian british starvation-genocides and tears told me all that holodomor stuff was fake shit, so i looked into it, and she was right. so, two different approaches, one by an educator, one by a chauvinist.
#143
I think you have some weird ancient beef with me over an issue i've completely forgotten about and it's clouding your posting to the point of being extremely bitter at everyone. u should follow your own advice about trying to comradely in tone and not seeing this as a high stakes battleground. i don't think you're actually concerned with running off and disciplining noobs or exchanging antagonistic remarks or whatever because you're very happy to pile on a thousand embittered attacks against any number of new posters here, while continuously defending you and huey's ability to do so. you're either being dishonest with these demands for introspection or are just really lacking in self-awareness.

Edited by blinkandwheeze ()

#144

blinkandwheeze posted:

weird ancient beef





i do think we have different politics. but that's all immaterial when you post good posts we can learn from, which you should do more of, but w/o your typical stridency/debate mode, b/c you're well-read!

Edited by toyot ()

#145
i mean again i'm not interested at all in completely one sided demands to abandon strident rhetoric or conduct some unspecified amount of intellectual work before being allowed to voice an opinion. but if you aren't able to take responsibility for your own completely objectionable approach to discussing these issues then this argument is just going to go in circles so i'll just acquiesce and stop taking part in this conversation.
#146

i'll just acquiesce and stop taking part in this conversation




#147

toyotathon posted:

how do you know better than any of the parties involved, whats going on there? stay out of their fucking business!


Impressive that you so easily abandon any spirit of internationalism or investigation, because what, the CIA is trawling the fucking Rhizzone for inspiration?

The call to be morally clever in this case seems like more of that "bourgeois handwringing" you decry.

#148

colddays posted:

Of course it's important to figure out if some things are communist, (using "communist" as shorthand for desirable, helpful to meet social goals, etc.) but the country of China isn't one of those things. Deciding either way can't guide your thoughts or actions in any useful direction because you, your organizations, and your country can never become China. Unless you live in China of course.

We can look at aspects of China and actions by China to evaluate if they're something we might want to try.


Why would China as a nation be exempt when we discuss what is communist? Deciding either way can guide what my goals are at the least. I feel like these two statements somewhat contradict each other. Of course my country can never become China, but it can't become the USSR either. Nonetheless Marxism-Leninism(-Maoism) is predicated on the idea that certain ideas, even removed from their own context, have universal validity. And it seems to me that China took a similar path to every other revisionist state, none of which ever returned to a socialist path. I think BNW summed up well the lesson of the GPCR above.


colddays posted:

I'm not sure that China's advances are strengthening Chinese capitalism, but if they are, should I oppose the lifting of millions from poverty on that basis? Maybe if strengthening Chinese capitalism is ALL the reforms are doing, but I don't think anyone can claim that in good faith. If the USA institutes a 15 dollar federal minimum wage, should I oppose that since it definitely is in the service of American capitalism? I do want to see the end of capitalist relations. Harm reduction isn't enough. That's why I don't join the democrats or an NGO like you said, but I don't think voicing an opposition to China is any more helpful than voting for Bernie either.


Of course we should not oppose the lifting of millions from poverty. But a certain skepticism is warranted about the motivation for doing so, and the enormous inequality that was fostered in China as a result, not just between the Chinese bourgeoisie and proletariat/peasants, but between rural and urban areas. Mobo Gao gets into this in his books, though he's more optimistic about China under Xi Jingping. If that poverty elimination isn't tied to a strong socialist proletarian party/state than it can strengthen the power of the bourgeoisie. And I think you get to the crux of the issue by comparing it to a 15$ minimum wage and Sanders, because the argument in defence of many of China's policies is really very similar.

China under Mao, especially during the GPCR, was more than merely a mild improvement or "progressive" alternative to bloodthirsty Empire, but a serious attempt to dismantle capitalist relations and move beyond the limits of the Leninist party. And this was being sought while also improving the lives of the average Chinese person.

#149
as an addendum to pescalune's excellent point about the intensification of particular inequalities accompanying chinese development, i don't think the question of "raising millions out of poverty" is an important discussion in the abstract. rather, i think what's important to question about this is 1. the extent to which the fruits of this development are uniquely attributable to post-maoist policy, 2. the extent to which this development piggybacked on or is attributable to the existing foundational developments of the maoist era and 3. whether the "great reversal" of chinese development is in any sense a necessary or essential component of these advances

there's also the obvious problem of the adequacy of the bourgeois categorical measures these advances are accounted under. the role of GDP in hiding the real mechanism of value extraction and exchange is well understood. in particular there's the further question of the adequacy in how relevant these measures are for understanding socialist development at all -- a transition from a system incorporating non-commodity exchange to one of greater marketisation is automatically going to introduce sudden and significant gains in economic activity because non-monetised services and goods weren't accounted for. there's a really phenomenal discussion on these issues here: https://rupeindia.wordpress.com/2018/01/19/the-struggle-of-actually-building-socialism-an-interview-with-fred-engst

which also isn't even getting into the question of ecological sustainability in large scale industrialisation, urbanisation and incorporation of modern agricultural practices...
#150

tears posted:

hmm, would you say that communist criticism of the CPC for its male dominance, from inside the empire, was chavinism-in-practice?



a Chinese person once tried to talk to me about what one of her parents did working for the chinese government, but i didn't actually listen what she said until she brought up something i could use to talk shit on her for yuks on an English-language comedy marxist forum. so i guess i'll never know.

#151
Dude why did you suddenly turn into an insane dick toward tears. i don't think anybody agreed with you months ago when you accused some random innocuous post of being racially suspect and you've posted about it like a dozen times since then to the point of making her take a break from the forum.
#152
because it was racist, and now it's coming bundled with all this not-even-crypto-but-blatantly-fash conspiracy shit from the same poster
#153
like i understand a lot of slack gets cut here because of the fash klassic komedy posters on the early years of this offsite, but part of the price of posting racially suspect shit now is that other people are going to make fun of you for it. if someone isn't prepared for that then this isn't a good place for them to post imo.
#154
you've been a great poster & posting ally in the past but i don't know what the f*** you're even talking about now and it seems like you have a giant insane chip on your shoulder about something i can't fathom the basic meaning of.
#155
okay, but what I'm saying seems pretty simple and I don't entirely believe that you have no idea what I'm talking about.
#156

pescalune posted:

Impressive that you so easily abandon any spirit of internationalism or investigation, because what, the CIA is trawling the fucking Rhizzone for inspiration?



it's a longer version of a certain maoist slogan about shutting the fuck up if you don't know anything. i added a lil detail about how you lose the presumption of innocence, when you sit in the west, asking whether or not saddam was a dictator, or about LGBT rights in russia, whatever's the latest state dept story. it's the tiniest cost of empire, that your white opinion on iraq is suspect. bbbut i'm just asking questions like, is it true gaddafi issued his troops viagra??? let's all investigate it, but first, what do you think of this taliban beheading video???

when bnw requests we all "take part in the simple task of condemning repressive national policy" of china, we can be smart anti-imperialists and refuse. obama pivoted the empire to the pacific and the pentagon is moving from GWoT to preparations for great-power conflict, so murdoch-owned vice is making documentaries about uighers now. now seems like an extremely bad time, actually, to take part in bnw's task. the chauvie trick's so old. like how dumb do you have to be, in 2002 to go off on saddam for gassing the kurds in the 80s. your ML politics turned to mush before some loud flag-fucker demanding your humanity in exchange for truck fuel. how many timid trot denouncements of saddam were there, how cheap is the consent.

the rest of it's just putting all his politics in a row. screaming at a woman until she says "this is no longer a safe space" and leaves-- look, red_dread and tears aren't lying when they say it's a problem, and it's not some far away thing, the guy's still here! he's not sorry, he says she deserved it, she had a wrong opinion. he's got some very pre-sakai ideas about the land question, which ya know, we were warned we'd find in white ML spaces, sheepish landowners. and in all 60s-70s movement post-mortems we are warned about the chauvinism infection, not just against women. sakai describes w/ anecdote in Basic Politics, how their oppressor politics tear up the fabric of our terrain. cointelpro did a number but most that i've read admit the movement befell internal chauvinist contradiction, the military/police just had to tip it over. so they didn't solve it back then, it didn't get solved in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, why do you think you won't find it here? check who's downvoting baby huey if you want a list.

these chauvie tricks are stale and all your reading counts for so little if you fall for them. bnw and bhpn will keep fighting cuz they have real political differences, bnw's a slimy trot wearing red and bhpn's an anti-imperialist. we're going to keep finding slimy trots in these spaces, because they never left, and they don't come in heiling whitey, their politics are subtle and you piece them together over time. i'd been adding up his politics and the moment of recognition was when he asked for the denouncement of china. i denounce amerikkka only, i was born four blocks from a thousand indian slave skulls, buried under their kamp turned into a happy tourist attraction. this vile kountry deserves my only attention. go make class war where you stand and shut the fuck up about amerikkka's imperial targets, trot slime.

#157
in any case, if we want to interrogate chauvinist attitudes toward PRC on this forum, where they do and don't manifest, which is what tears's post seemed to be doing, it's maybe worthwhile to look at actual examples of casual chauvinism on this forum, such as this post:

tears posted:

i went out for a drink a few weeks ago with the daughter of a chinese senior administrative functionary (cant remember what she actually said he did, but something to do with running a city) studying here, she didnt like communism and chose margaret thatcher when i asked if there was anyone she really admired. took alot of restraint not to denounce the CPC then and there to all the other people in the wetherspoons



...and take people at their word. like... bnw, i am pretty much 100% sure that you understand the coding behind using the word "functionary" to describe a Chinese government worker instead of "civil servant" or just "worker" or something similar. As for "cant remember what she actually said he did, something to do with running a city", that's also pretty clear about tears's attitude here.

so yeah, if we're going to discuss what is and isn't chauvinism in the context of discussions on this forum then it's probably relevant to examine actual chauvinism in discussions on this forum. when it's relevant because that poster decided to zero in on the topic themselves, i'm going to bring it up. and i mean... it's also just fucking funny. "something to do with running a city".

#158
toyotathon i think you should think about taking a break from posting right now because you seem angry to the point of genuinely concerning hysteria.
#159
cars, as your posting crew comrade and also as a staunch defender of the CPC, i think you're wrong about tears and the vendetta is weird and you should drop it.
#160
Note that i would sell all of you out for free toilet paper