#281
Y'know,
#282
Red Zombie - More Communist Than Communist
#283
Interesting to see how this collection of investors, Republicans and free market capitalists view China: not as a communist power, but as an increasingly capitalist power that they don't seem to mind running the post-WWII order they love so:

#284
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2168490/chinese-private-sector-fears-grow-over-states-role-city-sends

The Qingdao city government in eastern China has decided to send state-appointed cadres to act as “labour union chiefs” into 92 local private enterprises – a move that raises concerns over whether the state is extending its reach too deeply into the private sector.



Private firms said they were not happy about the development.
“Honestly, we don’t want any official to be sent to our company, especially at this moment,” said Rob Li, who runs an electric wire and cable manufacturing company in Weifang city.
His company is not in the first batch of private enterprises to receive government-appointed labour union “first chairmen”.
“It sounds like our labour cost sand staff turnover, or further operation costs, will face more surveillance from the government."



Debate is intensifying in China over the role of the private sector in the country after a self-proclaimed financial expert wrote a short essay online arguing that it had “completed its historic mission” and should be phased out.



Private companies form the backbone of the Chinese economy, accounting for 60 per cent of its gross domestic product and 80 per cent of jobs in urban areas.

But they are having an increasingly tough time as their state-owned competitors become larger and stronger.

Last month, Qiu Xiaoping, the deputy director of the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security, floated the idea that employees should “participate in the management” of corporations.

He said they also should let more people serve in management positions and help strengthen the leadership of the Communist Party.

#285

Debate is intensifying in China over the role of the private sector in the country after a self-proclaimed financial expert wrote a short essay online arguing that it had “completed its historic mission” and should be phased out.




Anybody know what this is referencing to? It sounds pretty sweet if you ask me

#286

Fayafi posted:

Interesting to see how this collection of investors, Republicans and free market capitalists view China: not as a communist power, but as an increasingly capitalist power that they don't seem to mind running the post-WWII order they love so:


This just in: capitalists will at least try to bet on whatever they think is the winning horse

#287

hey posted:

Debate is intensifying in China over the role of the private sector in the country after a self-proclaimed financial expert wrote a short essay online arguing that it had “completed its historic mission” and should be phased out.

Anybody know what this is referencing to? It sounds pretty sweet if you ask me



This is Wu Xiaoping 吴小平's article 中国私营经济已完成协助公有经济发展的任务,应逐渐离场, posted last September. It looks like there was quite a lot of English-language reporting on it.

#288

Petrol posted:

Fayafi posted:


Interesting to see how this collection of investors, Republicans and free market capitalists view China: not as a communist power, but as an increasingly capitalist power that they don't seem to mind running the post-WWII order they love so:



This just in: capitalists will at least try to bet on whatever they think is the winning horse



They definitely see China as a winning horse, but the point is that they see it as a winning horse in the capitalist race, and that they are looking for inroads to "reform it" to be more recognizable to themselves and more willing to cater to their private interests. And besides that it's funny how often they tell on themselves: their response to the Sinophobic press and politicians claiming China has not become internally freer is to point out that Ford sells more cars there than the U.S, which equals more Freedom Points, they handwave the "human rights" issues to focus on the real talk of China's "entrepreneurship" etc. They respond to cynical liberal bromides with more transparently cynical liberal bromides

#289
Very interesting how capitalists try to build more capital from the labor power of a country regardless of that country’s political or economic policy...... someone should write a book about it.......
#290

Fayafi posted:

They definitely see China as a winning horse, but the point is that they see it as a winning horse in the capitalist race, and that they are looking for inroads to "reform it" to be more recognizable to themselves and more willing to cater to their private interests.


Well, good luck to them I say, brandishing an improbably large bucket of popcorn.

#291

cars posted:

Very interesting how capitalists try to build more capital from the labor power of a country regardless of that country’s political or economic policy...... someone should write a book about it.......



I know this is a joke, but capitalists aren't "betting on" China because they can exploit labor-power there, they're betting on it for quite the opposite reason: it will overcome American competition in those industries - 5G etc. - which wind up with the bulk of profits in the capitalist market (i.e. high organic compositions) & continue to consequently restructure the world market to the detriment of US imperialism.

Naturally that can't happen without a world war, but the intelligent amongst them understand the tariff war as the opening shot of that.

#292
Oh I see the capital is not using labor to "overcome American competition" but Harry Potter Wizards magic... thats pret amazing..
#293
like I'm not sure I follow what you think the organic composition of capital means here. The amount of labor inputs per unit declines, but that doesn't mean labor power isn't exploited to build capital, it means the opposite.
#294

cars posted:

like I'm not sure I follow what you think the organic composition of capital means here. The amount of labor inputs per unit declines, but that doesn't mean labor power isn't exploited to build capital, it means the opposite.



Please don't insult me cars. the prices of production of commodities produced in industries of higher value compositions are only formed through a transfer of value from those with lower organic compositions. The point is that if China is not only assembling smart phones, but also selling them, and they are able to sell them far cheaper than their competitors, that's super-profits* that are flowing to China and not the US. Chinese workers are being exploited still, but the profits stay in China.

* is super-profit the right term? Cope in his new book presents this as the explanation of unequal exchange, but Emmanuel wrote in his book that even Otto Bauer recognized this as a factor in the uneven development of Austria Hungary. The issue is that it's the normal functioning of the capitalist market, not unequal exchange per se. But maybe it's time to ditch any theories that rely on "imperfection" a la Sweezy. I've been struggling with that

Edited by marlax78 ()

#295
A while ago I was pondering why it was that the Third World gets screwed if absolute advantage holds, because with outsourcing they're the ones producing commodities the cheapest, and naturally the old dependency theory answer is correct because if your absolute advantage is lower wages you ipso facto don't have a home market. but that doesn't apply to China. concretely the problem is really that American and European companies keep themselves at the top of the supply chain through monopoly power so that those companies which are producing commodities so cheaply in effect have to hand over the surplus-value produced by the workers they exploit. That is, the capitalists in one third world country win the battle of competition with a group of capitalists in a different third world country (i.e. attracting more foreign investment), but they're not even competing with capitalists in the first world. But it's precisely the contemporary developments involving China which are reversing that by, as I said, not only producing commodities cheaply, but producing high value composition commodities and selling them themselves

Edited by marlax78 ()

#296
so........
#297
i regret being rude. that is not what an Internet forum is about
#298
the capitalist stage of development cannot be bypassed but it can be accelerated then dismantled in an orderly fashion from above, is what seems to be the idea here. is dis revisionism
#299

littlegreenpills posted:

the capitalist stage of development cannot be bypassed but it can be accelerated then dismantled in an orderly fashion from above, is what seems to be the idea here. is dis revisionism


QFE

#300

Parenti posted:

Debate is intensifying in China over the role of the private sector in the country after a self-proclaimed financial expert wrote a short essay online arguing that it had “completed its historic mission” and should be phased out.



hey posted:

Anybody know what this is referencing to? It sounds pretty sweet if you ask me



littlegreenpills posted:

the capitalist stage of development cannot be bypassed but it can be accelerated then dismantled in an orderly fashion from above

#301
Vietnam’s electronics industry is probably going to be the biggest beneficiary of the U.S./China tariff war as everyone tries to shift production to avoid getting caught in it. Take that President Kennedy!!
#302
Sorry to subject you all to another VICE video and more discussion about Uyghurs.


I'm sure the "concentration camps" narrative of Western media is being overblown, however it seems pretty clear to me that the government of Xinjiang is putting excessive monitoring in place and trying to wash out Uyghur culture.
#303
So what happens in that documentary is they see a lot of surveillance cameras, talk to a random lady on the train who is nice but naive, and then the police realize they are western journalists and make them leave. During these minor events ominous music plays while police warm up and random people on the street who are working or talking to each other don't want to come over and speak with an obvious white lady (who thinks they mistake her for an Uygher with her shitty Chinese). Also I doubt very much the police are yelling "kill, kill, kill" but I don't speak Chinese so I can't say. Then in the second half she talks to the typical gusanos the US has collected for these things. And then at the end she films the gate of a really nice school and harasses a member of the police watching her film crew because, again, it's really obvious she's a foreign journalist there to craft propaganda. They should have thrown her in prison but unfortunately there's some intellectual property that can still be squeezed out of Qualcomm so China has to play nice for a bit longer.

As for the Uygers, China allowed this problem to fester by passively sitting by while the US trained fascist contras. But everyone knows about the devil's bargain China struck with imperialism and its long term goal, it's not like some great secret. That level of surveillance is the norm now, nobody goes around some suburb with a camera like "wow there's a camera watching us at every red light!" or goes into a corner store like "sir, how many cameras are in this store and outside it? 9?! unbelievable, they even hire members of the black and hispanic oppressed groups to watch their own people shop."

If the new norm of CCTV cameras bothers you, maybe in 50 years under global communism we can do something about it. I used to teach at a school where a camera constantly watched you but nobody made a documentary about my life. I only went to China briefly but all the security she went through is no different than Tiananmen square or Beijing airport, both of which were much less intrusive and obviously racist than Ronald Reagan National Airport (a name we are free to protest and yet still persists). Meanwhile in Manila they don't only have cameras, there are private security with shotguns at every entrance to a place not made of scrap metal.

I find that in these situations actually-existing socialist states stand in for everything we don't like about our own lives and then when reality fails to live up to it we dismiss reality to keep our escapism intact. Like, go to anywhere in the third world, you will find that there is far more security everywhere but it is privatized and heavily armed. China should be compared to India or Indonesia, not the imperial core, I would have thought the collapse of the Eastern Bloc so Gorbachev could appear in a Burger King commercial would have taught people that. Remember that for all of the bluster of China taking over the world, China's world shaking goal is to become a "moderately prosperous" country like Thailand or Brazil, what's remarkable about that video is that city doesn't look anything like the slums of Rio nor is it a paradise for western pedophiles like Bangkok.
#304
https://www.investigaction.net/en/capitalism-reduced-indonesian-cities-to-infested-carcases/

this is what imperialism wants to turn China into
#305
"the world's most sophisticated surveillance technology is being implemented here..."
#306
i had actually watched that shitty vice doco in preparation for dissing it here but huey beat me to it. ah well

a british one was released around the same time (maybe on itv?) and it was basically the same content but with more german brown moses added
#307
Who the hell posts Vice in 2019 lol

That video has shockingly little substance besides speaking to Uyghurs in exile, who if you look up have already given their story to the BBC and other orgs before this. The rest of it is creepy shit where they use a post-apocalyptic filter for everything, and cast everything as evil and ominous, like when they zoom in on a school and she says "thats a lot of kids" (freakin Chinese! why are there so many of them!?) and then speculates that they're being socially engineered inside, whatever the fuck that means. I guess that's about the Top Secret footage they captured where school kids were chanting about how theyre chinese and love their country, which yo someone who has attended Texas elementary schools, seems rather tame for propaganda.

Edited by Fayafi ()

#308
to be fair, vice was shit well before 2019
#309
i'm pretty sure he means that we all figured that out a long, long time ago
#310
I love my flag, because it's the best flag which is why i love my flag because it's the best flag which is why i love my flag because it's the best flag. -the American pledge of allegiance
#311

cars posted:

i'm pretty sure he means that we all figured that out a long, long time ago


i will take any excuse to post about vice being shit, even if it means misreading a comrade's post. i regret nothing.

#312

babyhueypnewton posted:

I only went to China briefly but all the security she went through is no different than Tiananmen square or Beijing airport, both of which were much less intrusive and obviously racist than Ronald Reagan National Airport (a name we are free to protest and yet still persists). Meanwhile in Manila they don't only have cameras, there are private security with shotguns at every entrance to a place not made of scrap metal...
Like, go to anywhere in the third world, you will find that there is far more security everywhere but it is privatized and heavily armed.

"it's actually pretty normal and worse in other areas" is not a great argument, it's just moving the goalposts because apparently this is the best we can do

what's remarkable about that video is that city doesn't look anything like the slums of Rio nor is it a paradise for western pedophiles like Bangkok.



I'm glad it doesn't look like Rio, and it's nice to see a reduction in poverty throughout China, a turn towards energy efficiency, and other positive developments, but that doesn't mean I'm just going to ignore revisionism like billionaires existing. I've said this many times before and I'll say it again, it's possible to have a balanced view of a socialist/hybrid country. You don't need to have rose tinted glasses to be a supporter of a country's overall trajectory. When I watch videos on the DPRK I can see that the people are happy, they have their needs meet, they have control over their lives, etc. But I also recognize that there's an unhealthy emphasis on the Kim family and on Pyongyang. Amazingly I am able to have criticism while also supporting the country. What a wild position! Likewise I can see that VICE video is filled with spooky music and anti-China propaganda, however I also see lots of security everywhere including barbed wire fence around a school. Is this really necessary? I don't think so and it sends us into the "can do no wrong" mindset that some communists fall into.

#313

Synergy posted:

I also see lots of security everywhere including barbed wire fence around a school. Is this really necessary? I don't think so


Part of the problem with Xinjiang is we're only getting snippets of the picture and they're being funneled to us through these heavily biased channels. Barbed wire fences around a school don't look great but we have no idea why they're there (keeping people in or out?) nor how prevalent that is (are there particulatly bad security threats in that area?).

China is doing itself no favours in the court of public opinion by being so opaque about the details of its security operations in Xinjiang. The core issue, entirely ignored by reports like the Vice video, is that there is a genuine violent separatist threat in the region driven by islamist groups. The response has indeed been overzealous, partly due to excesses and abuses by local authorities, partly due to poor central decision making and oversight. But some shaky hidden camera footage from the foot soldiers of imperial propaganda proves exactly nothing.

#314
Let us not forget that Saddam Insane was killing his own people
#315

Synergy posted:

I'll say it again, it's possible to have a balanced view of a socialist/hybrid country. You don't need to have rose tinted glasses to be a supporter of a country's overall trajectory. When I watch videos on the DPRK I can see that the people are happy, they have their needs meet, they have control over their lives, etc. But I also recognize that there's an unhealthy emphasis on the Kim family and on Pyongyang. Amazingly I am able to have criticism while also supporting the country. What a wild position! Likewise I can see that VICE video is filled with spooky music and anti-China propaganda, however I also see lots of security everywhere including barbed wire fence around a school. Is this really necessary? I don't think so and it sends us into the "can do no wrong" mindset that some communists fall into.



You know the reason you feel like you need to have a "balanced" view of China is because, even if you think this vice video is stupid, you add up the video times a million and you get an ideology that makes you think there has to be something to it. Why are you even honing in on barbed wire around a school for instance? It's an unconscious bias (totalitarian evil dictatorship, mindless brainwashed slaves) that you're refusing to cast aside.

#316
The problem is that the "complex" criticism follows the US line exactly. Here's a good overview of the situation

https://rupturemagazine.org/2019/08/04/why-china-cannot-win-a-trade-war-against-the-usa%e2%80%a8-samuel-t-king/

If anti-revisionists forwarded the position that Chinese revisionism is a failure and was always going to be a failure in the face of global imperialism that is one thing. Then we can discuss the real contradictions China and the USSR faced in the late 70s and possible solutions. Instead China is social imperialist, full of wealth inequality and worker alienation, oppresses national minorities, and has all the features of totalitarian social control. Not only are these identical to the Trump administration but "moderated," they are the same complaints as those against the USSR which player a greater than zero role in its collapse.

Criticism of China in that way doesn't interest me because it is just beating up a third world nation that has very little control over what it can do just because we expect something different for socialist states. Even this issue was created by American imperialism, giving China very little room to maneuver given American military, economic, and political hegemony.

The piece I posted is a bit too cynical, both for underestimating Huawei and potential inter-imperialist ruptures. The US is teetering on the edge of recession with many of the secondary imperialists already experiencing it, there are severe limits the American labor aristocracy will take while China can take a lot more on its economic long march. But the essential framing is correct, any discussion of China which does not being with imperialism as not only the primary contradiction but saturating every "semi-autonomous" local issue isn't worth much.
#317

marlax78 posted:

Synergy posted:

I'll say it again, it's possible to have a balanced view of a socialist/hybrid country. You don't need to have rose tinted glasses to be a supporter of a country's overall trajectory. When I watch videos on the DPRK I can see that the people are happy, they have their needs meet, they have control over their lives, etc. But I also recognize that there's an unhealthy emphasis on the Kim family and on Pyongyang. Amazingly I am able to have criticism while also supporting the country. What a wild position! Likewise I can see that VICE video is filled with spooky music and anti-China propaganda, however I also see lots of security everywhere including barbed wire fence around a school. Is this really necessary? I don't think so and it sends us into the "can do no wrong" mindset that some communists fall into.

You know the reason you feel like you need to have a "balanced" view of China is because, even if you think this vice video is stupid, you add up the video times a million and you get an ideology that makes you think there has to be something to it. Why are you even honing in on barbed wire around a school for instance? It's an unconscious bias (totalitarian evil dictatorship, mindless brainwashed slaves) that you're refusing to cast aside.



Right, people always ask "what are some legitimate criticisms of Stalin/Mao/China/Marxism." Or "Stalin wasn't perfect but..." It's a very strange way to think about the world, like the world is born with original sin and therefore anything that appears good must secretly bad. The impulse is what matters far before any factual claim. Criticism isn't really a good way to approach reality anyway while critique should emerge from study, which people want to skip to the end of not understanding that the dialectical process itself is knowledge.

We all know that, what's interesting rather is that this way of thinking has become common sense which says something about hegemonic liberal ideology being rather self-critical and yet fully dependent on abstractions like "democracy" to fill in the gaps of reality. It shouldn't surprise anyone here that "socialism" can serve a similar function when severed from the totality of the world so that my abstract desire for worker's control is my own rather than rooted in a hierarchy of social relations scaling all the way to go the imperialist world system at the most abstract level.

#318

babyhueypnewton posted:

anything that appears good must secretly bad



catchphrase

#319

marlax78 posted:

You know the reason you feel like you need to have a "balanced" view of China is because, even if you think this vice video is stupid, you add up the video times a million and you get an ideology that makes you think there has to be something to it. Why are you even honing in on barbed wire around a school for instance? It's an unconscious bias (totalitarian evil dictatorship, mindless brainwashed slaves) that you're refusing to cast aside.



Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe Cuba or Venezuela feels it necessary to resort to these kinds of measures despite also being constantly attacked by imperialism. It's easy to get stuck in an ideological bubble where you refuse to believe anything coming out of western media. Maybe only 10% of it is accurate but if you choose to throw out the plausible parts you're going to end up with blindspots. That's how you get "Pol Pot Did Nothing Wrong" takes.

#320
Met some random students from the mainland visiting for a bit. Ended up making some friends and took them out for fun times with the Mosin -- they liked the hamsick factory marking. Trade war seemed to be fucking up their trip though since Chinese students aren't allowed in a lot of places now. They were tooled up with Huawei too, and I told them to tell the Chinese people that the American people are upset with their government and demand Huawei. Doing my part. Also they gave me some authentic money with Mao on it. Pretty cool.