le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

getfiscal posted:

Goat is somewhat right that voting for the lesser evil often makes sense, even though we might get caught up in our anger towards both options and consider the election a farce. We might regret not voting for the lesser evil once we fully realize what happened, especially if the option we were sure was going to lose ends up winning. And that's why Goatstein should vote for Hillary Clinton.

i'm not going to post pictures of myself voting for trump and then screaming about how trump is the end of the world.

hmmm, we'll see abou t that. life has a way of surprising us all

blinkandwheeze posted:

Petrol posted:

as if all western proles (white or otherwise) can be sensibly understood and dismissed as "labour aristocracy"

i don't believe the entirety of the western proletariat constitute a labour aristocracy. i do believe that the 65+ support base from almost exclusively white regions that were the height of fordist development in britain are probably the clearest example of an "ageing labour aristocracy" possible though

well good, then we agree.

i've been trying to argue that it is a mistake to write the whole of the leave vote off in this way, which unfortunately is exactly what some so-called leftists are doing right now - if only by implication, as they lament brexit as an entirely racist phenomenon, and angrily dismiss anyone who tries to say otherwise. that's the essence of the position which i admittedly overstated when i argued the interpretation of those poll results.

tpaine posted:

i had deadken pegged from the start, as usual my ownage went unheeded. now look at you

where am i pegged.

getfiscal posted:

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

i'm not going to post pictures of myself voting for trump and then screaming about how trump is the end of the world.

Actually he voted for a nonsense option he had to write in, so it'd be more comparable to the PSL.

Hello.

HenryKrinkle posted:

"dividing the imperialist nations is good" could easily lead to "let the Confederacy break away" just fyi. explain the difference.

Scotland isn't advocating enslaving indians

Urbandale posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

"dividing the imperialist nations is good" could easily lead to "let the Confederacy break away" just fyi. explain the difference.

Scotland isn't advocating enslaving indians

.....anymore!!! haha. dual meaning of "indians." fucken swish

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

i really dont think trump is the end of the world, either.

maybe not but his campaign alone is bringing a helluva lot of erstwhile nazis out of the woodwork and giving them a platform and sense of self-assurance they haven't had for a while. having said that i still believe a clinton presidency would be significantly worse for the rest of the world. so many votes this year with no clear winner

overfire posted:

there's huge amounts of racism and xenophobia in the leave vote, because of the obvious misdirection of the entire ruling elite in shifting the blame for entire lack of jobs and services to migrants and because the british left are complacent largely middle class failures who do nothing to engage with the working class,

nevar forget:

Petrol posted:

i've been trying to argue that it is a mistake to write the whole of the leave vote off in this way, which unfortunately is exactly what some so-called leftists are doing right now - if only by implication, as they lament brexit as an entirely racist phenomenon, and angrily dismiss anyone who tries to say otherwise. that's the essence of the position which i admittedly overstated when i argued the interpretation of those poll results.

overfire posted:

there's huge amounts of racism and xenophobia in the leave vote, because of the obvious misdirection of the entire ruling elite in shifting the blame for entire lack of jobs and services to migrants and because the british left are complacent largely middle class failures who do nothing to engage with the working class, who they generally regard as thick lumpenproles best exhibited in jeremy kyle-like zoos that they will only encounter when a new pop-up cupcakery and craft brewey arrives nearby. when real fascism happens-when there is a literal fascist execution just down the road-their reaction is to hold tearful vigils and mourn what a beautiful young woman and waste of life this was, like she was murdered by a force of nature and not by a rising tide of fascist ideology that is encouraged by pretty much every mainstream news source and not challenged by anyone.

the reaction of my liberal left friends has been wailing and gnashing of teeth, dismissing everyone who voted out as old and racist and hoping they die soon and basically acting like the eu handed british workers every right they have on a plate and we'll die in the gutter without their beneficence. as natural individualists they can sneer "racist" at people with thick regional accents but they can't understand racism as an ideology with a traceable source which can be attacked. this is 101 stuff but the failure of the left on the ground here really can't be understated.

people who live hand to mouth in this country are crammed into the same shitty areas to fight over the last council houses like the fucking hunger games and are drip-fed daily racism through our famously awful tabloids telling them they have nothing because there used to be nice things but now there's less of them because immigrants have them, not because vulture capitalists have cut public services to the bone, and they believe this. the left should be challenging this but as the mainstream left is now essentially centrist they just point out how dirty their clothes are and how they say words funny on Channel 4 News and oh no the pound is dropping. "you cunts, look what you've done. it's not even 7am and the pound is at an all time low! now we're all poor AND we look racist! i can't wait for all the old people to die!"

this is the perennial mistake of the western left, and a fatal mistake: giving credit for every shitty popular decision to the political architects of the right, having a perfectionist intolerance for the actions of fragile limited humans trying to survive in an environment of extreme disinformation and deceit, and therefore ceding to the fascist all agency for determining the state of the world. teaching the masses that they are fascists will only help convince them that they are fascists. white people, both affluent and not, have a great deal to answer for, but nothing good will be accomplished by voluntarily handing them over to the enemy and telling them they belong there.

they would rather do nothing and say "it wasn't me!" than risk complicity in a failure to achieve the right thing.

there is a tactical time and place to give up on people and communities that cannot be salvaged, but yielding before the fight has even started is the quickest possible way to lose.

i'm just glad i can be around at least a handful of active people who know better.

marimite posted:

Anyone know how Stay supporters on the radical left rationalize their position contra workers in southern european states? And rhetoric aside, is it clear that leaving the EU guarantees a conservative shift in immigration policy? Maybe I'm just ignorant of the details, but it seems to me that that whole side of the debate is tangential to what the EU actually does.

they have, like, jobs and girlfriends from poland and similar bourgeois distractions from playing video games and posting on the rhizzone

overfire posted:

how many times do you reckon zziek can trot out that fucking anecdote about stalin saying "they're both worse"

http://europe.newsweek.com/brexit-eu-referendum-left-wing-politics-europe-zizek-474322

Lemme at him. I want to gut him like a very big fish.