#441
I really want to believe that jools and dead ken are functionally different from the people who were like "you DUMBASS GREEKS with you rSTUPID VOTING...." so can someone help me understand Brexit. What is Brexit.

smokemonkey posted:

tears I think you're being rather sanguine here. What fucks me off so much about this referendum is that the general level of discourse is so poor. I expect as much from liberals and overt fascists, but even among 'good socialists' it basically amounts to the same abstract revanchist argument about sovereignty. In the event of Brexit, years of opaque 'negotiations' will do as much as possible to make sure nothing substantial changes. The anglo rentier-bourgeoisie will get as smooth a ride as possible through the transition, and no-one will care because the EU is boring and complicated.

From page fuckin 1 btw

#442
nope, theyre leaning back in shock looking at a graph of the british pound (2.1 TRILLION $ IN ASSET DEPRECIATION) and going this is bad, democracy caused this, we need to stop democracy before it ruins the value of our assets and ugh, multiculturalism as well I guess?
#443

swampman posted:

smokemonkey posted:

In the event of Brexit, years of opaque 'negotiations' will do as much as possible to make sure nothing substantial changes. The anglo rentier-bourgeoisie will get as smooth a ride as possible through the transition, and no-one will care because the EU is boring and complicated.

From page fuckin 1 btw


well from page 2...

smokemonkey posted:

I don't think a result either way will have any serious disruptive effect on imperialism, and the Hitlers-in-waiting will do well regardless, but an English brexit combined with a yes vote in Scotland and occupied Ireland will doubtless bring us closer to the collapse of the British state, which is unambiguously a good thing.

Vote tactically everyone!


emphasis added. the stage is set. i think it's a very strong possibility scotland goes through with a second indyref now and tells england to fuck itself sharply. a reunited ireland is less likely but hell, it's also possible right now. what happens in continental europe is even more up in the air, but a domino effect (however slow) isn't out of the question. it's arguable that the risk of fash gains under those conditions is higher but it's pure speculation right now and i honesty believe it depends on whether the left has the will to fight back hard enough.

in short: brexit is chaos. chaos reigns

#444
I guess even though the open racism is pretty terrible, it doesn't sound like it has a lot of real popular support, esp police/military support which I think is pretty much necessary for a fascist movement. Or else there would already be a lot of violence. I mean, if there is a lot of violence and I'm not seeing it reported, thats on me for being ignorant. And yeah I'm also not seeing anyone get beaten for being racist. Without a clear picture of one person banging on another's dome with large weapons I have a hard time understanding what;s going on
#445

Urbandale posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/hilary-benn-revolt-jeremy-corbyn

this is why leave doesnt look like itll lead to anything good. it's not a problem with leave but it's a problemw ith the liberal institutions completely unprepared to deal with the nationalist right. instead theyre stubbornly insisting on continuing their failed liberal project to such lengths that they cant help but bring out the knives against the "bad for business" labor left. their bullshit has been repudiated and still instead of considering the antidote they prefer to pour it down the drain. fascism coincides juts fine with murdochs profits but if there were a "murdoch, but left," they could only go as far left as shallow liberalism lest theyd be arguing against their own bottom line.
although, the guardian is actually fully owned by scott trust that has like a billion pounds in reserve so they seem fiscally safe enough to theoretically be a left-wing anti-austerity populist counter to murdoch rags screeching about migrants.

another thing that definitely sucks is marxists going a bit further left than others are comfortable with, always getting called "insane" or "tankies" even by their former comrades, who themselves are called insane by normies everywhere but who would rather sell out their peers using that same language than simply be in disagreement with them

Edited by ilmdge ()

#446
after reading a bunch of articles and people's reaction at the bad place i think this is the brexit:

the nationalist, white pride section of the conservative party and the financial capitalist section got into an ugly spat, and because of that liberalism itself was put to a vote. all of the liberals expected everyone else to think like they do, and were counting on Remain to easily win with a secure margin and for liberalism to have its mandate reaffirmed. instead, in a terrible act of democracy (there are multiple reports of people waking up with no intention to vote and then thinking "ya'know, fuck the politicians" and voting Leave), the masses destroyed the basis for the existing social order, and now nobody knows what the fuck is going on anymore.

to put it another way: contradictions within capitalism created a social rift where the underlying truth of society, that is: class struggle, was able to assert itself.

being concerned about the future is rational, as last time this happened in the west (2008) liberals were able to take control of the results and use the social unrest as a means implementing austerity and destroying yet more of the old creaky soc-dem welfare state. but the material conditions and causes for the crisis are entirely different (hubristic banking crisis vs. unexpected explosion of populist rage), and to be terrified and angry over The Thing Marxist Analysis Says Will Happen And Keep Happening is, i think, not very useful at all!
#447
jools has always been a holier than thou leftist like thug lessons and babyfinland. calling ppl out itt
#448
[account deactivated]
#449

glomper_stomper posted:

yeah, the class struggle asserted itself alright.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

ass-inserted itself into the garbage.


with the exception of the postcards and graffiti directed at poles, which seems somewhat organised, the rest of these incidents are surely not far removed from any given pre-brexit day in england. the difference being a boldness and loudness which hopefully will find itself malnourished and therefore temporary. the situation will not be helped by liberal gnashing of teeth though

#450
I'm not a liberal by any means, but I think this is an incredibly stupid gamble to make given the right wing's power in the UK and in the rest of Europe. It's not Greece. There is no strong communist or even socialist party. Lenin would say that anything giving space to the growth of a party would be beneficial, and this is now going to gain them any space to organize. Especially if they keep insisting that the people who voted leave in the UK are 1) Working Class + 2) Revolutionary + 3) Ready for Socialism
#451

Petrol posted:

glomper_stomper posted:

yeah, the class struggle asserted itself alright.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

ass-inserted itself into the garbage.

with the exception of the postcards and graffiti directed at poles, which seems somewhat organised, the rest of these incidents are surely not far removed from any given pre-brexit day in england. the difference being a boldness and loudness which hopefully will find itself malnourished and therefore temporary. the situation will not be helped by liberal gnashing of teeth though



Well, the difference also being that now the institutions the United Kingdom is currently built on are smashed and the fascists are way more organized, united and militant than the left. Can we please go into a time machine, back to the Weimar Republic, and can you please tell me what you think if you see any communists arguing that the Nazi Party takeover is good because at least the bourgeois reactionary Schleicher government has been pushed out of power?

#452
Would being in the EU somehow stop a fascist takeover in the UK? The point of the EU is to streamline "business as usual," which fascism has never had a problem with.
#453

EmanuelaBrolandi posted:

Would being in the EU somehow stop a fascist takeover in the UK? The point of the EU is to streamline "business as usual," which fascism has never had a problem with.



I certainly don't believe the EU is anything other than a capitalist, imperialist organization. And I don't think it has the power to stop a fascist takeover. Clearly not, as that's what is being threatened right now in the UK. That's what Brexit is.

#454
[account deactivated]
#455

MarianneSadd posted:

I'm not a liberal by any means, but I think this is an incredibly stupid gamble to make given the right wing's power in the UK and in the rest of Europe. It's not Greece. There is no strong communist or even socialist party. Lenin would say that anything giving space to the growth of a party would be beneficial, and this is now going to gain them any space to organize. Especially if they keep insisting that the people who voted leave in the UK are 1) Working Class + 2) Revolutionary + 3) Ready for Socialism

It's already done though... it's already been voted for. I think my confusion comes from people talking about Brexit like the vote hasnt happened yet. Now that it has, you can't bemoan it unless like, the election was rigged. To turn around and say, we need to re-vote on this, ah don't worry about it because Brexit will die in negotiations over the next years... You say it's a fascist takeover but in fact, the fascists are not in charge yet. But they will be if the biggest action people like Sam Kriss can undertake is to vote comedy wetlands option when they see a ballot. There is no strong socialist party but there are weak socialist parties and there are people being harassed and threatened who need organization. They needed organization before but now they see the danger, I'm not glad of it, but how can the UK undo the vote and undo Brexit without helping fascism more?

#456

glomper_stomper posted:

the communist parties involved in the leave campaign, as far as i understand, have shown that they have no obligation to rush in advance to actually defend england's most oppressed and exploited classes from fascist terror.

i honestly don't know if this is the case but i know that in the US the "hard" left is overwhelmingly pro-immigrant and knows that attacking the victims of neoliberal globalism is no means of assaulting neoliberal globalism.

i mean for all the hate WWP/ANSWER gets for being "tankies" or w/e they are some of the most militant advocates for the undocumented.

#457
I mean yeah "fascists" are in charge but not the actual fascists who are like, "Yeah I'm a fascist, heres 1000 page book on why facism is the best, here's a 0 page book on why fascism sucks,.. yeah idk why they published a burned binding either. I guess that's all the commies could come up with."
#458

MarianneSadd posted:

That's what Brexit is.



I disagree, Brexit is not a fascist takeover. Although currently it certainly has the potential to hasten such a turn, anti-EU sentiment is much broader and overlaps with many different positions. The issue has been (probably intentionally) confused in the media narrative during the lead up to the referendum; with a huge push to brand anyone advocating for Brexit as doing so on the grounds of immigration and racism. Assuming the media manipulation was intentional, this backfired immensely while also giving a platform to fascists seeking to capitalize on workers legitimate discontent. Within the media framework the results have legitimized these parties, yet even they weren't prepared for this and have somewhat distanced themselves from claims and promises they were making in the lead up such as 350m pounds available to NHS, or getting rid of immigration entirely.

UKIP etc are not in a position to lead the country effectively and they know this. They were founded as a protest party and their experience of any meaningful governmental responsibility has been relegated mostly to the EU parliament where they were the lowest group in attendance. In the House of Commons they currently have 1 seat, their first ever.

Even assuming a far-right coalition electoral win it's entirely possible that the Brexit process takes two years, during which time a lot could happen, the delay might disillusion voters. Or in the event of a fast exit it's likely there would be serious mismanagement, deepening the crisis and workers disillusionment with these parties. It's possible that all our enemies become weakened by this.

It's hard to predict what happens. Either way, condemning those who voted to Leave as incurable racists and fascists is not the way forward. It's a time to reach out and do grassroots community work, educate and organize. While people are influenced immensely by the media narrative it's also possible to change perceptions on the ground.

**edited for clarity

Edited by Gssh ()

#459

Gssh posted:

Assuming it was intentional, this backfired immensely and gave a platform to fascists seeking to capitalize on workers legitimate discontent.



Does not follow. It was intentional and did not backfire. But other wise I agree insofar as media presentation and its goals still doesnt mean brexit was a fash takeover

#460

EmanuelaBrolandi posted:

Gssh posted:


Assuming it was intentional, this backfired immensely and gave a platform to fascists seeking to capitalize on workers legitimate discontent.



Does not follow. It was intentional and did not backfire.



Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I mean is that if the media manipulation was intentional by pro-EU parties/media/business/etc in order to polarise voters and effectively taint the Leave campaign it did backfire as they did not win and have had their parties/economy weakened.

**edited the referenced post for clarity.

Edited by Gssh ()

#461
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#462
i think one of the biggest impacts of brexit is that it has broken the TINA spell used to beat greece PIIGS etc over the head with that leaving the eu = apocalypse

it obviously is not so the eu, imf etc impirators have no clothes; also funny to see the various elements of the ruling class in such disarray
#463
This referendum has only happened because a long decaying 'British' imperialism has come to an end and the contradictions that have emerged need to be addressed*. When pro-EU liberals complain that Britain is too small to be a significant presence on the world stage, this is what they are actually expressing. What they don't understand is that if indeed the result of this referendum is implemented, (which is far from guaranteed) Britain will simply become a mere outpost of American imperialism instead of a partner within an emerging independent European imperialism. The dominant section of the British bourgeoisie, that is, those dependent on inflows of European capital, will be severely constrained by such a development.

*The same is true of most European countries, but the particulars of British capitalism make those contradictions more acute.
#464

xipe posted:

i think one of the biggest impacts of brexit is that it has broken the TINA spell used to beat greece PIIGS etc over the head with that leaving the eu = apocalypse

it obviously is not so the eu, imf etc impirators have no clothes; also funny to see the various elements of the ruling class in such disarray



i don't think it stops the actual power of the ECB to make sure the cash machines stop working. exits of eurozone nations r likely to be supremely difficult no matter what Le Pen wd like. all this is going to do is empower the fash + force the EU to reach an accommodation w then which will be even worse than now

#465
Farage, Le Pen and possibly whichever Italian fascoid ride the wave of righteous anger will come to a new deal with Brussels - free movement remains, but foreigners lose all entitlements to welfare, health, education+labour rights and can be summarily deported for no reason. Leftist triumph
#466

littlegreenpills posted:

Farage, Le Pen and possibly whichever Italian fascoid ride the wave of righteous anger will come to a new deal with Brussels - free movement remains, but foreigners lose all entitlements to welfare, health, education+labour rights and can be summarily deported for no reason. Leftist triumph



This, but as a non-ironic Pablo Iglesias take

#467
#468

littlegreenpills posted:

Farage, Le Pen and possibly whichever Italian fascoid ride the wave of righteous anger will come to a new deal with Brussels - free movement remains, but foreigners lose all entitlements to welfare, health, education+labour rights and can be summarily deported for no reason. Leftist triumph



my prediction time: in the next five years we're definitely going to see ireland reunify with north ireland, scotland reunify with independence, korea reunify with north korea, germany reunify with austira, germany reunify with france, and germany reunify with poland

#469
i don't get this british beef at all so i wll reflexively upvote anyone who writes anything that i think advances my understanding at all, and this is why i have upvoted both sides of probably every disagreement in this thread so far. thank s everybody
#470
british beef is full of mad cow disease - avoid imo
#471
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#472
So the CIA loves giving itself credit for breaking up the USSR by baiting them into an unwinnable war in Afghanistan, so called "playing the long game"

But it was the US intervention in Afghanistan which armed, trained, funded, and empowered the Mujahideen. They then attacked the US in retaliation for the US military occupation of Saudi Arabia and support for the Palestinian Genocide. The US then attacked Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and eventually effectively declared war upon the entirety of Islam, dragging NATO in to play pop genocide as well.

The 15 year and counting USA war on Islam started by the Afghanistan campaign then spawns a massive refugee crisis fleeing the war ravaged middle east and sweeping across Europe. This, along with the necessary imperialist propaganda to keep the populations whipped into a blood frenzy for race war, led to a surge of white nationalism across Europe, and the US is on the verge of electing the most fascist president in history since the last one. Now the nazis have possibly just struck the first blow at dismantling the entire EU, there's talk of Scotland and Northern Ireland secession. The economies of all the imperial powers are shaking and there's nazis stepping towards armed conflict from California and Oregon, to England, Ukraine, and most countries in between. Even people in fucking Texas are eyeing brexit saying "well it worked over there..."

So who was really playing the "long game" in Afghanistan?

In summary I guess, Ronald W Fucking Reagan just reached out from the grave and destroyed the untied kingdom of great britain and northen ireland AND the european union, as a sock puppet of anti-imperialist super mastermind, Leonid Brezhnev.

#473
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-survive-labour-party-hilary-benn-brexit-lexit-narrative-change-a7103976.html
#474

ilmdge posted:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-survive-labour-party-hilary-benn-brexit-lexit-narrative-change-a7103976.html


Pretty much this. If Corbyn can pull this off he stands a chance of restricting the reactionary resurgence to the margins. Funny that the vast majority of the British liberal press is resolutely against this

#475
ICP: In the UK, there is a great number of people from European countries who came here to work. Do you think that exiting from the EU force these people who all are from working class to go back their home countries?

ER (CPGB-ML): I doubt that as a result of the election they would be sent back. If they were, it would be a very unfortunate side effect. But all the same, we cannot go against the interests of imperialism without facing sacrifices. We are not going to be able to win the war against imperialism without tremendous sacrifices. It’s obviously unfortunate when people who aren’t aware of the need to sacrifice have to make them anyway. We would be very sorry about that. Nevertheless, it seems to me that is unlikely. The British ruling class gains a lot of benefit from the fact that they get highly qualified and very cheap labour. So, why would they send them back?

#476
Embarrassed to call myself M-L this week, but only because of braindead fools like this.
#477

MarianneSadd posted:

ER (CPGB-ML): Nevertheless, it seems to me that is unlikely. The British ruling class gains a lot of benefit from the fact that they get highly qualified and very cheap labour. So, why would they send them back?

oy.

idea that ruling class naturally favors lax immigration policy is incredibly flawed for so many reasons.

#478
on the bright side, Shaggy 2 Dope's trenchant and class-conscious approach to journalism makes me, as always , proud to say I'm down with the clown
#479
If you sour on the CPGB-ML, you could always join the CPGB-PCC. They venture into territory that most other parties won't touch, for example: "The party lists abolition of age-of-consent laws among its immediate demands."
#480
[account deactivated]