blinkandwheeze posted:

i think the entire idea of there being distinct and discrete categories of the leave voting base and an "opportunistic fascist minority" requires a general identification of a class character of the voting base. if we can't make that class identification i think it becomes the case that these are not in fact discrete categories and "condemning and combatting" the opportunist fascist base will in fact require condemning and combatting significant proportions of those you believe would be wrongly smeared as little eichmann's

If they insist on supporting the fascist line, sure. But this is missing the point. Let me reframe my argument in a way that I hope will make my intention clear: beyond general observations of xenophobia, any claims about the character and motivations of the leave vote are speculation. I have only tried to problematize the issue as a way of combatting the pessimism I have observed among the left about the prospects for the fight against fascism. The important thing is to press ahead with this fight in a consistent and principled way.

Let's set aside, now, this postmortem of the leave vote. It can only be a pseudoscientific attempt to analyse what is, as you have pointed out, a bourgeois-democratic process.

swampman posted:

http://twitter.com/Hayley_Barlow/status/747765347047063552So yeah, the police have denounced this incident (quote at the end of the video), the racists were the ones who left the bus, and the media response is not "Immigrants stink up bus with their beer soaked shirts", which is why I feel a combination of cautiously optimistic and chaotic neutral about breKKKsit. All based on one twitter video

hmm i see 100 people standing by while thugs do whatever they want aka terrorise the vulnerable; we badly need street power and antifascist areas and a bit of backbone

babyhueypnewton posted:

This doesn't tell us anything since the vote happened and we can't go back in time and prepare for it better. Communist parties have to state a position on the issue so you either advocate for Brexit or for the EU. There are no other options.

ah yes, There Is No Alternative, the british classic we all know and love. just like in the US how there is just hillary or trump and you have to pick one.

babyhueypnewton posted:

this is like arguing the Bolsheviks splitting from the Mensheviks is "causing leftist infighting" which is an argument that actually was often leveled at Lenin.

its only like that if you think the british left is, materially, anything like the russian left under lenin. i would think it would be obvious that this is not even close to being true.

Urbandale posted:

are you in an organization or just really really into telling people how to spend their time

why do you care?

Petrol posted:

although it may be true that most leave voters were motivated by fears about immigration, that doesn't mean they are all unsalvageable frothing racists.

once again, here on the rhizzone, someone is advocating reaching out to literal petit-bourgeois right-wing white nationalists as the natural ally of the left, instead of literally anyone else

cars posted:

i did.

i hope for everyone's sake that in the event of the dissolution of the EU that the left is organized enough to prevent the reproduction of the same relations that you've described. if not it sure will have been a waste! this is a big part of my whole point: my understanding is that the whole point of criticisms of electoralism is that under bourgeois democracy both the development of the choices that the bourgeoisie presents the electorate with and the subsequent negotiations and implementations of these choices are controlled by the bourgeoisie.

whenever the left has made substantial gains for the livelihood of oppressed people it has been by undermining the idea that these options are the only ones available, and that they are being administered by the right people. generally this works by demonstrating, on the streets or through interventions in production/reproduction (supplemented by ideological expression of course or no one will know why someone would do these things, but the history of, say, the US democratic party is a great example of the results of ideological expression of advocacy for the oppressed without the commensurate material basis), that there is another way of organizing power.

that is to say, the amount of agency the left has in determining how bourgeois elections or referenda like this play out is directly determined by the extent to which the bourgeoisie agree that they need to be appeased somehow, because they will be the ones ultimately deciding on how the details of the term of the new elected official or the finer points in the execution of the referendum will play out.

for example, boris johnson is advocating a compromise: britain will have access to the EU's common market but will enforce migration controls. paul mason agrees with some people here that britain leaving the EU is probably fine, as long as labour forms the government. i'm a little more skeptical but if paul mason can successfully accomplish his fusion dance with harpal brar and usher in a new age of political relevance for the british left that will be able to force the british bourgeoisie to make concessions even in the light of capital flight and international pressure by both british capital and foreign capitals, then i'm sure it will be fine.

animedad posted:

blinkandwheeze posted:

do you really not believe construing a sector of the british population voting along largely reactionary lines toward a campaign fundamentally directed on right-nationalist lines as a real expression of overwhelmingly working class anger against the international elite affirms the propaganda of the far right? this has been how practically every overtly fascist narrative regarding the victory has been formulated

this++

++good

tears posted:

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Brexit
If anyone wants to explain how communist organisations in an oppressing nation not advocating for the break up of the EU, or advocating for the break up of the EU "in theory" but when presented with a literal vote to do so advocate not taking that vote, and instead sitting on the fence, perhaps advocating for the break up of the EU when the proletariat of the oppressor UK are "ready", doesn't show utter callousness to the gobal victims of EU and UK imperialism and is infact social-chavanism, putting the proletariat of one of the greatest opressing nations before the interests of the whole oppessed world?

Agree w this

c_man posted:

Urbandale posted:

are you in an organization or just really really into telling people how to spend their time

why do you care?

cuz itd be pretty funny to watch someone who doesnt do anything telling people who do what they should be doing while also not saying anything new for 5-6 pages

also i dont think itd make much sense to call leave voters petit bourgeois, unless theres a class analysis somewhere i just havent seen claiming thats a larger proportion of voters or something

Edited by Urbandale (June 28, 2016 20:00:30)

babyhueypnewton posted:

Maybe the CPGB-ML analysis is flawed, this doesn't mean the organization everyone was high on a few weeks ago is now shit. Compared to the critique they are facing from left-liberals I'm not so sure their analysis even is flawed, it seems to be a bit too realpolitik for polite company. But even if it was, throwing labels like racist at communist paties is liberal sectarianism at its most spooky.

You call the CPGB-ML the "organization everyone was high on a few weeks ago" when, in reality, it's fairly inconsequential because the CPGB-ML can't mobilize more than a few dozen people. I don't even see this as a widespread disagreement, more like a section of very vocal people on a corner of the internet being vocal about things. For most people in the UK, to try and equate Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair under a single "Labour" label will get you laughed at. Also interesting that, as far as I know, CPGB-ML opposed the Scottish Independence movement for nearly the same reasons it supports Brexit.

tears posted:

If anyone wants to explain how communist organisations in an oppressing nation not advocating for the break up of the EU, or advocating for the break up of the EU "in theory" but when presented with a literal vote to do so advocate not taking that vote, and instead sitting on the fence, perhaps advocating for the break up of the EU when the proletariat of the oppressor UK are "ready", doesn't show utter callousness to the gobal victims of EU and UK imperialism and is infact social-chavanism, putting the proletariat of one of the greatest opressing nations before the interests of the whole oppessed world?

Maybe before raising this question you can first explain how a bourgeois-democratic process concerning purely formal membership in the eu actually alleviates any of the concerns of the victims of eu and uk imperialism. this is only chauvinism if the move does in fact represent callousness toward the interests of the global proletariat but i am not convinced this will result in anything but a continued collaboration with and participation in the european unions market and interests while intensifying discriminative and civil repressive measures against migrant workers