toyotathon posted:

likes aren't real


Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

ah i see cars and againstthemoon already covered the viewpoint thing

yeah my main point there is because there is effectively no difference between these guys' cults and hashtag Hillary Resistance, but these guys pride themselves on being Mr Spock instead of wielding state power, stuff like Viewpoint article is the best, because it can be shown during arguments with their cultists that have an curious audience or one only marginally interested in the writer

even though that audience will prob never read Foucault or Derrida or even the whole article they will recognize it as the guy being criticized showing ass in a major way, like, the whole foundation of his book is that he's illiterate

Edited by cars ()

evidence: Gibbonstrength's Sam Harris article is maybe the most popular tHE r H i z z o n E article off-site in recent months, because its mere existence drives a bunch of New Atheists up the wall screeching


it's good when reactionaries get destroyed

cars posted:

evidence: Gibbonstrength's Sam Harris article is maybe the most popular tHE r H i z z o n E article off-site in recent months, because its mere existence drives a bunch of New Atheists up the wall screeching

i recently googled the article name to see if it's still getting any attention and found a quora post asking if the article is true, and it had like 10k views


le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

i eat a decent amount of soy and i have more visible muscle mass wearing a boston hellwinter coat than any altright man i have ever seen. unless...what if i was a testosterone werewolf without soy...

the phytoestrogens in soy include and are even primarily antiestrogens, as always internet manchildren lack even the slightest understanding of whhat they're talking about


If Jordan Peterson comes to your city and you go to the protest, maybe don't bring a garotte. On an unrelated note, I hear crushed up ceramic from sparkplugs is really good at breaking windows.

misanthropic_rage posted:

it's good when reactionaries get destroyed

"And I know because you've tried" lol 10/10 own

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im inviting him for a debate on my podcast
Campus protests are seem good as hell to me. If nothing else they are a good way to build budding consciousness in younger people and also give them good organizing skills. I was a South Park nihilist in college and never did any of that sort of thing and now I'm playing catch up as far as learning how to organize and be a leader.

That's part of the reason I am slightly heartened by the women's march and the big science marches--even though they're infested with liberalism, getting large groups of previously checked out people used to chanting and yelling and marching in public is what it will take to eventually build a mass movement.
jorden peterman can debate my asshole in hell.... bich!!!!!!!

Caesura109 posted:

it's 2018 who thinks still campus protests are worth the trouble? Its like they know they are just going to boost his reputation but they just cant help themselves

Beside the many other things wrong with this statement. Students get brought to the left through campus protest.


Petrol posted:

jorden peterman can debate my asshole in hell.... bich!!!!!!!

yeah, like i said, he can come on my podcast

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Chuuni Sensei & The Dragon of Chaos

“Unbelievably Cool” sculptures of “entwined serpents that merge as dragon of chaos that manifests itself as nature and culture”.


Jordan Peterson does to evolution what Deepak Chopra did to quantum physics, albeit with a little more finesse. Peterson is the counter-enlightenment to Nu-Atheist Sam Harris style hyper-rational enlightenment. He wants to get all the logic worshipping autists in touch with their irrational, mythical anima and chase the dragon away to restore the individual to its rightful place at the top of all dominance hierarchies.
The meat of his online presence is the two courses he teaches every year and uploads to youtube. One is called ‘Maps of Meaning’ which is an earlier academic book, a hodge-podge of Cog-Psych and Jungian readings of myths. In the other called ‘Personality and its Transformations' he pivots to using his reading of myths in the mode of a life-coach, sort of a midway point before his current turn as full blown self-help guru for NRx. He speaks in his guru mode as if kids brought up in the anglo positivist tradition have never come across a Nietzsche or a Dostoevsky, introducing continental thought only to reinstate liberal morality and wisdom.
The course on personality is based in the Cog-Psych re-invention of the Jungian Myers-Briggs test. An extensive self-survey questionnaire is used to assign percentile ranks to people on a five factor model of inherited characteristics - extraversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, conscientiousness and openness. Peterson reads these statistical studies mostly in a Jungian mode but with some lip service to Husserl’s students who formed Existential and Phenomenological Psychology. He uses this latter group to insist on meaning being primary (rather than sense) in psychology and therefore essential to human life, something to be wrested with great struggle from Chaos. This explains why the greatest threat to 'Western Civilization' for Peterson is the student of Husserl who buried him, Derrida.
He uses Jung to give a veneer of academic credibility to a pop Campbellian framework of reading myths while dismissing Campbell as derivative of Jung. His rehabilitation of Jung repeats the move many waves of new agers made before him - to focus on Freud’s early work on dreams in order to bury his subsequent development of psychology on the basis of sexuality and neurophysiology and replace it with a sweeping trans-historical anthropology of archetypes and myths. The evo-bio stuff is window-dressing to this core of his theory. He never really sorts out his conflation of libertarian individualism with mythical heroics or what any of it has to do with evolution.
He teaches Jung before Freud because '... excavated so many more levels of the unconscious than Freud'. This he uses to segue into developing your 'potential', according to him the Jungian 'self'. You see "our materialist view is essentially wrong. the proper way of looking at being is that being is potential and from that potential, whatever consciousness is, it straps out the reality we inhabit." From here, he gets on his favourite theme, the hero's journey of self-realization (the Jungian 'individuation'). George Lucas’ regression of science fiction to pre-war space adventures is more responsible for Peterson than Jung. Peterson appeals to chuuni teens endemic in YA lit in the same way as Star Wars or Hunger Games: objects exist in Peterson's universe but no other subjects - just representations of the hero's unconscious, learning from his 'experience' to make his life meaningful and gain absolute power.

A painting from an Alchemical scroll that shows a dragon fertilizing the winged ball used for witch soccer by later generations of magicians

Of late, he has started shoehorning Christianity into the equation on the same basis as the hyper-rational skeptics use to reject it, by flattening the history of religion and making it just another hero myth. In his version of Christianity, God is the Jungian Logos and human destiny is to bring Chaos into order, therefore Christianity is part of one long snake hunt that humans have been waging since being ejected from Eden. He finds support in evolutionary theory for his reading of myths from Lynne Isbell’s book whose back cover reads,

“Predation pressure from snakes is ultimately responsible for the superior vision and large brains of primates... snakes could have influenced the development of a distinctively human behavior: our ability to point for the purpose of directing attention. A social activity (no one points when alone) dependent on fast and accurate localization, pointing would have reduced deadly snake bites among our hominin ancestors... snakes may well have given bipedal hominins, already equipped with a non-human primate communication system, the evolutionary nudge to point to communicate for social good, a critical step toward the evolution of language, and all that followed.”

Venn Diagram of the Holy Trinity and the Dragon of Chaos

This stuff is self-satirical but Peterson makes it even more ridiculous by drawing parallels to pop culture, like saying Moses is like Logan or that "the bible is the first hyperlinked text in the history of the world", an insight that could have come from anime twitter.

His wiki entry has this related quote,

"...the ethical responsibility of a Christian is to imitate Christ, for Peterson meaning "something like you need to take responsibility for the evil in the world as if you were responsible for it ... to understand that you determine the direction of the world, whether it’s toward heaven or hell".

Again, this is protestantism for chuunis. Any serious examination of the legacy of Christianity in Enlightenment Individuality would deal with Kant rather than pushing the argument into deep time and resort to myths. Peterson follows Stephen Hicks here, a professor at a Randian-Libertarian department called 'Center for Ethics and Entrepreneurship' at Rockford University. According to Hicks, Kant is a Counter-Enlightenment figure responsible for 'Postmodernism' because he took the skeptic problematic of correspondence between reason and reality, subject and object, and came down on the side of the subject, severing reason from objective claims.
This argument is the ever-fertile ground of philosophy but don't expect any insight from Peterson's confusion. He believes (along with other hyper-rationals) that reason corresponds to some objective reality and at the same time (unlike other hyper-rationals) defines this reality negatively as what lies outside rational order. In the name of reason, he makes an ingenuous appeal to 'reality out there' for a nineteenth century romantic fantasy of the enterprising adventurer setting out to tame chaotic reality and bring it under capitalist order.

In his two and a half hour paean to Lion King's great depiction of the hero’s journey to restore the status quo (imo Madagascar is more fun and ideologically interesting), it becomes apparent that his style is facile free association like how light represents knowledge and rationality while darkness holds chaos, that the dominant person is represented at the apex of the painting and other such revelations. He interjects these with a spattering of shitty evo speculations like

"Mufasa's posture is because of increased serotonin of a dominant person."

"The rational mind has a totalitarian element... that kind of rationality seems to be more left-hemisphere focused... the right hemisphere keeps track of exceptions and fantasies."

His evolutionary howlers are numerous. He is convinced dominance hierarchies exist among humans just like chimpanzees or other animals,

"You have a counter at the bottom of your brain that keeps track of where you are in terms of status and it bloody well regulates the sensitivity of your emotions... if you're at the top of hierarchy, than your counter tells you that and your serotonin level goes up - your less sensitive to negative emotions, less impulsive, live longer. your immune system works better."

He thinks the aquatic ape theory is credible. He makes off-hand comments like "half of our brain is dedicated to visual processing" or that a baby can babble all phonemes but its impossible for adult westerners to pronounce asian phonemes. He makes typical obscurantist statements to emphasize the mystery of the world ready to receive the adventurer like "dream is the birth of thought like artists are the birth of culture" or that in a daydream, "half you are doing it voluntarily and the other half is manifesting itself. It's like a gateway between you and the collective unconscious." Talking about morality, he says

"How did we learn how to act? We've been trying to do that for 3.5 billion years [??]. There's a lot of information encoded in our actions and social interactions, way more than we understand."

Jung at least had better training in interpretation. He self-consciously distanced himself from Freud by repressing the question of sexuality but in Peterson, evolution is the pretext for a regression in sexuality never directly addressed but assumed as fact. He’s trying to be an authority figure that teaches nobility is still possible and sexual success a side effect of striving towards that.

"How about the heroic willingness to encounter the unknown and share that with people? There is no nobler vision than that... if you do that, you will be successful... you will rise up above men, you will be selected by women, you will be admirable and valued."

He warns against MRA resentment,

"The women think, ‘why should I bother with you if you are not the embodiment of spirit that would move into the unknown and face the leviathan’, which is exactly what she should be saying, and you're thinking ‘well I don't want to have to do anything with that but I would like women to like me anyway’, so that doesn't work out and instead of getting your act together, you say ‘those goddamned women’."

But relax, you don’t have to go far to face the unknown. Who knew the local frat bash was this dramatic?

"Let's say you are socially anxious. You go to a party, your heart is beating. Why? the party is a monster. Why? Because the party is judging you. It's putting you low down the dominance hierarchy and that interferes with your sexual success and that means you are being harshly evaluated by nature itself. You are confronting the dragon of chaos."

He clarifies his role,

"Educators are surrogate fathers, not mothers because it's not their job to provide a safe space."

But that doesn’t mean women are not important touchstones,

"Women are more self-conscious than men. Further, women taught men to be self-conscious... because there is nothing that that makes a man more self-conscious than to be rejected by a woman he desires."

What really gets Peterson’s goat is not the dragon at the edge of his farm but the dragon that is domesticated and cute. Only he sees how dangerous it continues to be. This is his laughably salty understanding of marxism. Another quote from his wiki entry,

"I will never use words I hate, like the trendy and artificially constructed words "zhe" and "zher." These words are at the vanguard of a post-modern, radical leftist ideology that... [is] frighteningly similar to the Marxist doctrines that killed at least 100 million people in the 20th century.
As a result of my studies, I have come to believe that Marxism is a murderous ideology. I believe its practitioners in modern universities should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to promote such vicious, untenable and anti-human ideas, and for indoctrinating their students with these beliefs."

Peterson, much like the rest of the hyper-rational crowd, is above ideology. He has developed immunity to ideology because Jung taught him that "Ideologies are parasites. Their hosts are archetypes. Knowledge of the underlying archetypes can produce immunity against ideological possession." Communism, according to him, is ‘inorganic’, it arose without mythology so it's not part of the ‘Western Civilization’. Of course without a mythology to establish a transcendent morality, communism makes people murderous. This reading begs the question of how can anyone develop immunity to an ideology that is not based in myths and archetypes. He considers Nazi propaganda aesthetically admirable, yet regularly flies into a rage any time someone treats communism as less than the final boss dragon.

I think the adulation Peterson has received has nothing to do with his work since his work is in line with bog-standard positivist/ego psychology that gave rise to the american self-help industry although he would like to sell it with european credentials. If he insists on being Jungian, i would gladly classify him as another iteration of new-age mysticism that began with human potential nonsense, all waves given theoretical legitimacy by Jungian revisionism. Peterson is The Secret of alt-right, air-headed self affirmation for chuunis raised to believe in perpetual teenage narcissism.
In the ongoing psychotic derangement of anglo politics where both sides have taken recourse in paranoid conspiracies, Peterson might come across as ‘sane’ but the adulation he has received is precisely because of his voice - it doesn't matter what he says, what matters is that the whiner's voice is amplified. His fans identify with the scratchy quavering that signals how emotionally invested he is. Ironically, he believes idpol is a marxist conspiracy to ruin ‘western’ values when there are enough criticisms of idpol from the left. He quixotically fights marxist dragons while actually feuding with neoliberals over his idea of classical liberalism. He represents another ghetto in the idpol slum even though he thinks of himself as a critic of the game.
Here is Peterson’s statement of counter-enlightenment,

"The individual's sovereignty is the bedrock principle of western civilization. The individual is the eye above the pyramid. The individual is the thing that dominates the set of dominance hierarchies. The individual is the thing that plays not the game but the meta-game. The individual is the thing that revivifies a dead culture. That's why it’s is sovereign and valuable. That's the foundation of our legal system and culture. So to think about it as the emergent property of enlightenment ideals is dangerous because that's 400 years. Who cares about 400 years? This is forever. Forever is a lot more firm grounding than 400 years. It's not a set of rational ideas. It's way deeper than that."

This cold war holdover dadcore Randian libertarianism could have been cute but he is after all a psychologist, and for a psychologist to tell fables and indulge in naive sentimentality to restore a withering ideal is a farce.

Edited by drwhat ()

Jordan Peterson Vindicated by Thawed Caveman's First Words: "Ooga Booga"

"How did we learn how to act? We've been trying to do that for 3.5 billion years"

this may be the first documented instance of Reverse Creationism


Caesura109 posted:

it's 2018 who thinks still campus protests are worth the trouble? Its like they know they are just going to boost his reputation but they just cant help themselves

almost every reactionary speaking on US campuses the last few years have been no-platformed pretty successfully

Front page slip discos post?
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So he’s a satanist. Well that’s not very special
I’m going back to my original position: gas. Nothing about this guy matters one bit, he’s just some New Ager devil worshiper.

slipdisco posted:

five factor model of inherited characteristics - extraversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, conscientiousness and openness

IDK if tihs is sometihng from Peterson himself but for what it's worth, it's not even remotely true of the "Big Five" that they are supposed to be heritable, and investigations into their heritability has shown that they overwhelmingly are Not with slight exceptions in one or two them showing a very small and environment-contingent degree of apparent heritability. If he's actually claiming the Big Five are *Inherited* then he's discrediting himself in the only field he has even the slightest claim to something approaching expertise in, which I wouldn't be surprised to find out I suppose since he's already kind of doing that with his extremely shoddy evopsych crap and trying to connect it to his personality psych work. I know that he is peddling a shitty glossed up service that's essentially the bog standard Big Five inventory administered by some dorks he's broughht together, it's even worse than i thought if that's what it is but he's also claiming that they're inherited/heritable. What a fucking fraud thihs guy is lol.


cars posted:

I’m going back to my original position: gas. Nothing about this guy matters one bit, he’s just some New Ager devil worshiper.

yea hbut he's ggeograpically close and i can cut him in half with a large sword, maximizing my heroic destiny or whahtever

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Every time Agent smith says "Mr. Peterson"
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it's a clever move for the lizard people. the generation of impressionable youths from the crumbling settler bourgeoisie will either be attracted to his fascism directly, or the ones who are justly revolted will be induced into embracing the lyotards and klackloy kleekleks and by the time they figure out they've actually gotten mixed up with a perversion of the infallible science of marxism-leninism they'll be halfway into their mortgage
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"...the forces against us are tremendous." yea who could of thought nazism and white supremacy had so much opposition.

Edited by misanthropic_rage ()

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I'm loath to out myself as a Chapo Trap House listener but in between the racist slander of the DPRK on this weeks episode the hosts mentioned that next week they would be interviewing Shuja Haider re: Peterson's book. Haider wrote that great Viewpoint article that cars posted and so it could be a good interview

Belphegor posted:

I'm loath to out myself as a Chapo Trap House listener but in between the racist slander of the DPRK on this weeks episode the hosts mentioned that next week they would be interviewing Shuja Haider re: Peterson's book. Haider wrote that great Viewpoint article that cars posted and so it could be a good interview

I will say I tune in from time to time even though it's Daily Show level garbage and their line that Peterson sounds like the Professor Brothers was 10/10

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I refuse to back your foolish plot to hear a podcast.
Robinson has a good appraisal of Peterson out now. Robinson's politics are very bad but he's not terrible at disemboweling these hacks: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve

Order is the Shire of Tolkien’s hobbits: peaceful, productive and safely inhabitable, even by the naive. Chaos is the underground kingdom of the dwarves, usurped by Smaug, the treasure-hoarding serpent. Chaos is the deep ocean bottom to which Pinocchio voyaged to rescue his father from Monstro, whale and fire-breathing dragon. That journey into darkness and rescue is the most difficult thing a puppet must do, if he wants to be r

who reads this shit