#41


i found thug lessons retconning his reason for getting banned being revulsion at holocaust denial and not him freaking out about gamergate
#42
Note that I am the exact, and only person who banned Lessons and I banned him for calling people schizophrenic
#43
glass houses, he who is without sin, etc
#44

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

sounds like the zzone really got its shit together!

#45
oh shit, actual discussion happened, sick sick nice

I don't think Peterson is anything particularly special when it comes to reactionary pieces of shit, except for that he's my personal fucking nemesis. the fact that he's a clinical psychologist drives me up the wall. I came across a youtube of his a while ago talking about meaninglessness and depression that I thought was actually really great, and so I started following him on twitter and all of the sudden I was getting this garbage injected directly into my eyes and I was like what the fuck is this what is THIS. so the thing is that he does say enough good and actually helpful things that it is easy to see how he hooks people who are lost and disaffected, which also HAPPENS to be a really convenient recruiting pool for fascists, it rules, it's great

so there's some personal identity shit that he's rubbing on for me, because while I am intimately familiar with the fact that a lot of my peers in clinical psychology are goddamn reactionary jabronis that shouldn't be entrusted with anyone's mental health, most of them don't have the fucking platform that petereson does, and he's easily the most popular clinical psychologist that I can think of besides Dr. Phil (AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH). so yeah, there's some personal grudge against this jamoke because while I am not interested in defending some distorted ass reputation of clinical psychology as an overall benevolent force, there are certainly some things I think the field can contribute to make the world better and he is popular for the exact not them.

he's a merchant of certainty. his rules "as an anti-dote for chaos" or whatever bullshit might as well be to shove your goddamn head in your asshole so that you never ever have to reconsider your assumptions about your worldview or integrate any complexity into your thinking and FUCK YOU WE'RE NOT LOBSTERS??? he's got his worldview to sell you, and isn't it wild that it's the exact same bullshit we've been dealing with for forever. what galls me is that psychological coping mechanisms that our society needs more than anything is psychological flexibility - an acceptance of uncertainty. our desperate need for certainty fuels our drive to dominate and control, it's literally destroying our planet, yet here this bozo is repackaging it and selling it as Mental Health and it drives me up the fucking wall.

anyway, I'm mad about him, he makes me mad online, and I don't even care if that makes me a dork
#46

Caesura109 posted:

This dude is so obnoxious and overly-discussed, if we all just ignore him maybe he'll disappear


there are too many homer simpsons in the world with access to power and resources that make this "just don't look" strategy implausible, imho, but I am open to reconsidering.

#47

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

mugabe glasses is cool and im sorry if i was mean it is nothing personal


also wait is this goatstein? because if so, I will tentatively accept your sort of vague and half-assed apology as a thing that you've done and consider the possibility that you have changed. I certainly believe it is possible for people to change, otherwise I'd have made a fundamentally bizarre career choice I guess. anyway, hello hi, I believe you that it was nothing personal as you were viciously mean to literally everyone, so okay, yes, thank you I appreciate the gesture

#48
he voice sound silly
#49
ALSO ANOTHER thing that really chuffs me is that I think an evolutionary lens for understanding psychology is really important but he gets fucking EVERYthing wrong, as so many evopsych dipshits do, where they conflate cultural traits that have been learned with BIOTRUTHS about those behaviors as specific mechanisms that have evolved and are inherent to our hardwire, completely dismissing symbolic thought as an inheritance system in itself and the incredible plasticity of our brains, ignoring fundamental questions about how we learn or whatever, and FUCK YOU FOOLS FOR PROPAGATING THIS TERRIBLE SCIENCE I HATE YOU
#50
realq: how do we tell a BIOTRUTH from a CULTURETRUTH
#51
de Biologiekampf
#52
hai wats going on itt
#53
*thinks for a minute* gas.
#54

littlegreenpills posted:

realq: how do we tell a BIOTRUTH from a CULTURETRUTH


this is a really really huge question that I am going to take a stab at, but good lord it is complicated.
I think some of it has to do with doing a lot damn more to interrogate our cultural assumptions, doing a way better job of incorporating more perspectives into our research agendas (e.g. not assuming generalizability of findings from studies using white college kids as some kinds of universal human principles, integrating research conducted by a much much wider perspective than solely from those sitting in the core of the empire, etc), doing a shitload more comparative studies and replication of research in different populations/contexts/cultures to get a better sense of differences and working toward underlying mechanisms of how we learn. and holy shit, do a way better job of taking into account our economic/material structures/incentives????

I think it also requires taking a more explicit cultural evolutionary lens, and looking at ways in which cultures themselves evolve as sort of self-replicating and self-organizing meta-organisms (getting back to the materialist shit, I think of capitalism as its own self-replicating system that interacts with other self-replicating systems but that's a whole other post). I think this necessitates taking on a complex adaptive systems lens, personally, and being way way way better at recognizing the ways in which systems operate on different levels of social organization. For example, thinking about how our minds work on an intrapsychic level, on an interpersonal and collective level, and the ways in which those systems interact and inform each other - each level has its own emergent properties and principles that don't necessarily translate directly or scale up/down, but they do inform one another and interact with each other in non-linear ways that matter.

okay that is a very sloppy answer to a huge problem that I feel overwhelmed by and severely under-equipped to deal with in its entirety, but ultimately my point is: fuck jordan peterson, I won't concede this important line of inquiry to the fascists.

#55

cars posted:

*thinks for a minute* gas.


hm word that's cool, well it was chill while it lasted, later dudes

#56

cars posted:

*thinks for a minute* gas.



dsyp

#57

mugabe_glasses posted:

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

mugabe glasses is cool and im sorry if i was mean it is nothing personal

also wait is this goatstein? because if so, I will tentatively accept your sort of vague and half-assed apology as a thing that you've done and consider the possibility that you have changed. I certainly believe it is possible for people to change, otherwise I'd have made a fundamentally bizarre career choice I guess. anyway, hello hi, I believe you that it was nothing personal as you were viciously mean to literally everyone, so okay, yes, thank you I appreciate the gesture


ron howard vo: he hadn't changed

#58
swampman what does that mean are you telling me not to trust the goat
#59

littlegreenpills posted:

realq: how do we tell a BIOTRUTH from a CULTURETRUTH



Society directly affects your biology in very significant ways before you're even born (medical science, nutrition, etc). Is DNA a biotruth to be opposed to culture? The DNA of say, a domesticated animal like a cow or a pug, is inseparable from human culture & society, a product of it. So are humans themselves. Uncritically adopting the nature / culture dualism as if it reflected reality is idealist imo.

#60

mugabe_glasses posted:

swampman what does that mean are you telling me not to trust the goat


Nah just making a reference to Arrested Development, an underground television comedy that is fairly popular around the... stranger parts of the Web.

#61
Who linked holocaust denial shit here, did that happen?
#62

mugabe_glasses posted:

le_nelson_mandela_face posted:

mugabe glasses is cool and im sorry if i was mean it is nothing personal

also wait is this goatstein? because if so, I will tentatively accept your sort of vague and half-assed apology as a thing that you've done and consider the possibility that you have changed. I certainly believe it is possible for people to change, otherwise I'd have made a fundamentally bizarre career choice I guess. anyway, hello hi, I believe you that it was nothing personal as you were viciously mean to literally everyone, so okay, yes, thank you I appreciate the gesture



you're welcome and yes i believe i have changed, and have become kinder, due to the unqualified love i feel towards my family - although this is a change in degree and not type, as i recently imagined what it would be like if my toddler son developed a terminal illness and i went hypothetically in 30 seconds through all the stages of grief in a Target parking lot, ending with me in a mind-simulation going active shooter in the headquarters of a health insurance provider

Edited by le_nelson_mandela_face ()

#63

stegosaurus posted:

Who linked holocaust denial shit here, did that happen?



no, although this was how he attempted to frame it, showing up after 10 months of not posting after melting down over gamergate https://rhizzone.net/forum/topic/13291/?page=12#post-322045

#64
the person he was responding to btw has 30 total posts and registered a day before thug lessons returned, and said "I recently defended the epistemological right to deny the Holocaust, as a principle, although that doesn't justify harboring racist attitudes against Jews." which i do not think is the same thing as holocaust denial
#65
Lol. Sorry I brought it up.
#66
stego do you still have that rage comic i made of you confronting the alleged police agent on the dumbass racist incest gamer forum.
#67
lol
#68
in America, we learn that "holocaust" is not to be used in reference to actual nuclear fire in and/or around Hiroshima and Nagasaki. its pretty cool. we're the good guys over here
#69

mugabe_glasses posted:

psychological coping mechanisms that our society needs more than anything is psychological flexibility - an acceptance of uncertainty.



I agree with the other stuff but the science of dialectical materialism is true and applies to all material reality, the call to "accept uncertainty" is a reactionary defeatist attitude which the margins of the petty-bourgeois left (who claim leadership of the occupied internal colonies) in the heart of neoliberal empire have clung to. Peterson is merely the defense against that by claiming capitalism is true and complete but it's packaged for the formerly ascendant white male petty-bourgeois, a class that is already in terminal decline. He is notable only because he has to vocalize white male settlerism which means it's already dead rather than hegemonic as common sense. Both deconstruction and it's reaction are corpses though they may take academia as we know it with them. Probably for the best.

#70
The reason I want everybody to forget about him is that he's actually more mild than fuckers who get invited for talks at the AEI like Sam Harris or whatever, but for some reason for the past six months every other leftist seems to be declaring him their personal nemesis. Like, how's he even that annoying, he's such a mild flavor of fash that he'll be just another weirdo who some white boys will look back at as a phase they went through. Maybe its because hes at the cross section of Christian right-weirdo, New Atheist-type anti-Muslim anti-feminist, self-help guru and philosophy and evo-psych bullshitter.

Edited by Caesura109 ()

#71
Im happy not to know who the heck this guy is and ill thank you all not to change that.
#72

glomper_stomper posted:

clarence was purged,
lessons' return was spurred;
and popery alive—
this most of all in his absence did thrive,
listen well and learn, terry,
for this is the burden you must carry

#73

Caesura109 posted:

The reason I want everybody to forget about him is that he's actually more mild than fuckers who get invited for talks at the AEI like Sam Harris or whatever, but for some reason for the past six months every other leftist seems to be declaring him their personal nemesis. Like, how's he even that annoying, he's such a mild flavor of fash that he'll be just another weirdo who some white boys will look back at as a phase they went through. Maybe its because hes at the cross section of Christian right-weirdo, New Atheist-type anti-Muslim anti-feminist, self-help guru and philosophy and evo-psych bullshitter.


This campbellian jungian mysticist garbage is far more overtly fascist and sinister than standard engineering undergrad new atheism i think.

#74
seems like a flavour of the month. not worth worrying about
#75
the post-political anarchic retreat to individualist religious identarianism & mythic white nationalism has been the primary mode of development for western fascism for decades. while peterson himself may not be particularly significant the line of thought he embodies is far more in line with a genuinely american expression of fascistic intellectual development & i doubt will dissipate
#76

Caesura109 posted:

The reason I want everybody to forget about him is that he's actually more mild than fuckers who get invited for talks at the AEI like Sam Harris or whatever, but for some reason for the past six months every other leftist seems to be declaring him their personal nemesis. Like, how's he even that annoying, he's such a mild flavor of fash that he'll be just another weirdo who some white boys will look back at as a phase they went through. Maybe its because hes at the cross section of Christian right-weirdo, New Atheist-type anti-Muslim anti-feminist, self-help guru and philosophy and evo-psych bullshitter.


it doesn't seem like a great idea to just leave a reactionary guy's thought alone because he's not as bad as those other guys over there, even assuming that is the case here

#77
2017-18 rhizzone pivot to conspiracy theories and shouting about all the biology bros who produce the make believe reasons for inequality and exploitation, in a word, good
#78
It's strange how many lesser atheists still engage in magical thinking, toward jung, Buddhism, the singularity, etc. I don't think this proves that there's some inherent impulse toward religion btw, simply that their approach isn't materialist so they've got a huge blind spot for anything that presents itself draped in the cloak of Science
#79
sometimes i think the ideological climate has changed to such a point that those people don't exist anymore and they've all evolved, but then i find one and i realize how drastically my own window of what i'm exposed to has changed
#80

mugabe_glasses posted:

cars posted:

*thinks for a minute* gas.

hm word that's cool, well it was chill while it lasted, later dudes



I think you're cool but from what little I know about this guy he's not really worth discussing imo