#5681
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +++++
a WWP friend of mine was telling me they met this PSL member they wanted to date and the comrade said "sure I'd like to go out with you but I have to ask my cadre first" now THATS some purified democratic centralism
#5682
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
unbandale who are the lurkers trying to use rhizzone to destroy real lives? show yourselves iwc
#5683
Post rating: ~
wonder if anyone's been snitching on me too. great. lovely.
#5684
Post rating: +
dc doesnt make any sense for me currently either. at least the part of dc where you never discuss/reveal internal debates and rebuff all external critcism by invoking dc. for a quasi-military underground organization dc makes a lot of sense though

a lot of times i dont even think theres much internal life to these parties to even report on. ive seen some wwp and frso internal stuff that was really weak. but since im not a member i cant say it was the full picture.

Edited by stegosaurus ()

#5685
Post rating: ~
weird the san francisco psl at least seems a whole lot less rigid than that but since i only have friends who are members and only gone to meetings as a civilian, cant say i have a clear picture of the demands they put on people internally
#5686
Post rating: +
My experience with democratic centralism is that it is mostly used by powertrippers to shut down dissent about theoretical issues, propagate bullshit lines and justify people giving stupid orders, which i doubt is what lenin meant

im sure i rememer someone telling me that rcg were threatening her with "diciplinary action" because she wasnt meeting their newspaper sales quotas...yeah
#5687
Post rating: +
Im remembering the thing sakai said in basic politics of movement security about how the cpusa would say that the best way to combat infiltraitors is for everyone to shut up and do what the cc says...which is actually...bad
#5688
Post rating: +
yeah demanding that people shut down their own decision making judgement and not ask questions is a really great way to walk right into total infiltration. lots of "leaders" with such a total lack of actual leadership skills (or any social skills) that they can't lead so much as just shove people around uselessly
#5689
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

soft-kicked from the local cuz i wasnt thinking about my actions before i did them. dunno what to do now cuz ive been here for six years. need to reflect. made this account cuz the last had too much attention from lurkers, reporting everything i did to people who dont know me and dont ask questions before they take action. regardless i still think psl the best party in the US. now that im not there tho i feel like fuck it ill dry-snitch. some yall knew me as urbandale. might try and pull some people to leninism in dsa, who knows. wish me luck plz.


this is bad praxis and you should selfcrit

#5690
Post rating: ~
i will fight anyone itt who doubts the tenets of demcen
#5691
Post rating: +
I'm not doubting the tenets it's just inappropriate in some situations and frequently abused. The fact that apparently people were on here snooping on urbandale is ridiculous lol.
#5692
Post rating: +
perhaps it's time to take this to the secret pdf subforum
#5693
Post rating: ~
Do I understand that the PSL is one of the 'best' parties in the US in terms of praxis and numbers?
#5694
Post rating: +
I mean nobody's launching people's war. Organizing protests and reading groups and running ppl for office doesn't require a locked down hierarchy with penalties for laxity
#5695
Post rating: ~

stegosaurus posted:

I mean nobody's launching people's war. Organizing protests and reading groups and running ppl for office doesn't require a locked down hierarchy with penalties for laxity


it does actually, if you actually are looking to organize the people

#5696
Post rating: ~
"yeah i read ludo martens, he's the most illinest"
*gives you party of the revolution and the workers' party resolution of 1999 where demcen is seen as one of the biggest strengths of parties of the new type*
"woah i'm not that into him"
-rhizzons maoists
#5697
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
I don't think there's anything wrong with getting people into the militant mindset that involves basic considerations like, not gossiping outside the org about internal struggles however vaguely, not walking out on meetings, turning up to actions and participating as directed. It's absurd to invoke democratic centralism unless they were actually like, throwing stuff at the cops at a protest after being told not to. Like at what point is having expectations for behavior of your members "democratic centralism" and not just a thing that people do when they work together. As I understand it the origins of demcen were to prevent factionalism during extremely clandestine, dangerous organization. Again not to say that the PSL isn't doing "dangerous" organization since we're trapped here on fucking Pig Planet.
#5698
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
*my roommates kick me out for pooping in the shower every day* this is democratic centralism gone mad
#5699
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: ~

shriekingviolet posted:

wonder if anyone's been snitching on me too. great. lovely.


You should be fine bc you unceasingly uphold the science of marxism leninsim and never betraying the ones u care for

#5700
[account deactivated]
#5701
Post rating: +
"democratic centralism" is so often picked up on by a certain type of (usually male) person attracted to the more authoritarian elements of marxism leninism who fantasises about being the next lenin and leading an army of revolutionaries, who think they can paper over genuine issues by giving orders and demanding obediance. They convieniantly ignore that it runs both ways and is ment to put enermous responsibility on those chosen to lead, rather than to enable demands for obsequiousness and subservience dressed up as a need for "self criticism".

Getfiscal said once that lenin said a lot of things, often contradictory, and people can uaualy find something in lenins works to justify whatever they want and imo nothing has been more abused and misenterpreted amound western orgs than the concept of democratic centralism, which when applied properly actually owns, but when missaplied makes orgs toxic.

Just mi 2 cents, i will not be fighting anyone about this
#5702
Post rating: +
My comments are coming from observing obviously dysfunctional and ineffective so called ml behavior at close range for years, criticism of which was waved away with vague references to D.C. and stageist party building rhetoric. Im not opposed to discipline or accountability I actually think bad or inappropriately applied D.C. makes that type of shit worse. I said this before basically but you have an ax to grind so I'll get out of your way.
#5703
Post rating: ~
despite its position under my post i assume that is not aimed at me, who has never ground an axe,
#5704
Post rating: ~
Tears I thought you were a farmer tho
#5705
Black Belt
Post rating: ~

stegosaurus posted:

thats really shitty. if youd like to move to utah mr. dale my local cant bring in enough apprentices.



plz pm me location and prereqs

#5706
Post rating: ~
psl is just taking demcen too far since wwp has none
#5707
Black Belt
Post rating: ~
im pro demcen and to be fair there were other circumstances at play. i was in local leadership for years for example, so fucking up or being seen as fucking up sets a bad example for candidates. i think the big weakness here is that no one talks to members about (real or perceived) disagreements at the national level without a preexisting relationship, and because san diego hasnt had anyone in national leadership, there are no preexisting relationship that have been built up via the struggle. this is changing now, communication is being regularized (at least here), but its largely confined to a very small number of people, and two-way consultation is still lacking.

cant speak for other locals to be honest, since other locals look differently, but communication failures are a problem.

e: local members also took issue with me defending DSA for the troop thing, but tbh i think PSL twitter is and has been arguing against the party's position on recruiting active duty, which is most of the content of what i was saying there.

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#5708
Post rating: +

JohnBeige posted:

local members also took issue with me defending DSA for the troop thing,


#5709
Black Belt
Post rating: +
PSL (and WWP) recruits active duty and has articles about it. I wasn't defending the fact that he's an officer or his Hampton article/views on Kurdistan. According to people in his local he radicalized in training and was looking for a way out, so he posted the two pics online. Now he's being threatened with the brig, dunno on what grounds, HFG might know. Regardless, his only other option was AWOL and underground life forever AFAIK. I dont blame him for not taking that option. PSL twitter was either playing internet gotcha politics, were ignorant of the line, or being opportunist and using it to attack DSA when the party has social media guidelines against attacking organizers and organizations. I wasn't censured by national for it regardless.
#5710
Post rating: +

JohnBeige posted:

According to people in his local he radicalized in training and was looking for a way out,


Awwww why'd you have to go and spoil it for me with context, now I feel sorry for the poor dope

#5711
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~

aerdil posted:

i got banned from SA just for upvoting a thread about the grover house



all i had to do was suggest that vilerat was in libya to advance western political interests

#5712
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

soft-kicked from the local cuz i wasnt thinking about my actions before i did them. dunno what to do now cuz ive been here for six years. need to reflect. made this account cuz the last had too much attention from lurkers, reporting everything i did to people who dont know me and dont ask questions before they take action. regardless i still think psl the best party in the US. now that im not there tho i feel like fuck it ill dry-snitch. some yall knew me as urbandale. might try and pull some people to leninism in dsa, who knows. wish me luck plz.

if you have a lead on a job that would be worth moving for moneywise, ill do it. PM me. im unemployed + rootless with a decent resume for an office or nonprofit.



all the best & i appreciate your posting and posts.

#5713
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: +++++
one of my radical bible beater pals found this web site pretty recently thanks to Twitter and was like, is this you? and i said yeah of course, and they said, oh that's weird. and i said great, what did i do to embarrass myself? and they said no it's weird because you're exactly the same on the internet as you are off of it. some day my soul will fly from this world of unending shame
#5714
Post rating: +

cars posted:

one of my radical bible beater pals found this web site pretty recently thanks to Twitter and was like, is this you? and i said yeah of course, and they said, oh that's weird. and i said great, what did i do to embarrass myself? and they said no it's weird because you're exactly the same on the internet as you are off of it. some day my soul will fly from this world of unending shame



that's pretty cool actually

#5715
Post rating: ~

cars posted:

one of my radical bible beater pals found this web site pretty recently thanks to Twitter and was like, is this you? and i said yeah of course, and they said, oh that's weird. and i said great, what did i do to embarrass myself? and they said no it's weird because you're exactly the same on the internet as you are off of it. some day my soul will fly from this world of unending shame


Did they recognize you by posting voice alone? that's pretty impressive

#5716
Post rating: +

belgend posted:

"yeah i read ludo martens, he's the most illinest"
*gives you party of the revolution and the workers' party resolution of 1999 where demcen is seen as one of the biggest strengths of parties of the new type*
"woah i'm not that into him"
-rhizzons maoists


Appealing to an emblematic figure of endless western micropolitics which never accomplished anything as a relevant authority on practical efficacy is an interesting approach

#5717
Post rating: ~

blinkandwheeze posted:

Appealing to an emblematic figure of endless western micropolitics which never accomplished anything as a relevant authority on practical efficacy is an interesting approach


lmao, go on then about how he never accomplished anything

#5718
Post rating: ~
getting back on topic, im listening to techno and trying to get essays done instead of playing the snes mini thing i got yesterday, which owns.
#5719
Post rating: ~

JohnBeige posted:

PSL (and WWP) recruits active duty and has articles about it. I wasn't defending the fact that he's an officer or his Hampton article/views on Kurdistan. According to people in his local he radicalized in training and was looking for a way out, so he posted the two pics online. Now he's being threatened with the brig, dunno on what grounds, HFG might know. Regardless, his only other option was AWOL and underground life forever AFAIK. I dont blame him for not taking that option. PSL twitter was either playing internet gotcha politics, were ignorant of the line, or being opportunist and using it to attack DSA when the party has social media guidelines against attacking organizers and organizations. I wasn't censured by national for it regardless.



if you can, would you mind going into a little more detail or linking articles on active duty recruitment? my impression was the parties have contacts within the military but hold off on making active duty full members due to the uniform code of military justice rules on political activity.

#5720
Post rating: +

belgend posted:

lmao, go on then about how he never accomplished anything


nobody should be reverently appealing to the doctrinaire efforts of marxist-leninists parties or figures that have not established revolutionary armed struggle in any meaningful sense. there's a lot of value to be learned from these organisational efforts but this should be as open and flexible a process as possible. the idea that we are simply obligated to adopt the disciplinary standards of militant revolutionary cadre because forebears who were not even militant or revolutionary did so is just cultist behaviour