c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
do you think it's more counterproductive than demanding that the people being bombed make sure to have appropriately nuanced politics before you will oppose the racists who are bombing them?
c_man posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
do you think it's more counterproductive than demanding that the people being bombed make sure to have appropriately nuanced politics before you will oppose the racists who are bombing them?
not before, I've personally been critical of the Israeli occupation for years, it's just recently seeing how debates on the issue always fall apart when it gets to this point is making me think perhaps this point can be ceded.
in disagreements between groups of people, it's important to first identify where each group falls on the oppression/privilege continuum. to use an obvious example, black people are more oppressed than white people, so when there is a disagreement between the two groups we have to re-calibrate our opinion of who is 'right' to account for this fact (let's not worry about the exact magnitude, or number of 'points' that we assign here, as different scales have different methodologies and regardless, the essential point remains).
now, as the progressive people we are here at th' rhizz', we all know the value of intersectionality, and how it can be used to gauge the relative oppression/privilege levels of individuals as they exist on intersecting lines of bigotry, social status, and class. this allows us to move beyond the simplicity of a numerical value to a more nuanced 'privilege-oppression matrix' (ilmdge, 2013)
this is all review of course, and for some time the matrix has served us well for determining who is right, who is wrong, and what opinions we should hold. however, as sophisticated as this system is, i've long felt that there was still something missing. that somehow we still weren't getting the 'whole picture' so to speak.
this discussion of palestinian antisemitism has really crystallized things though. what we need is a third axis on our matrix, one that can plot the tolerance and openness of various groups of people against their relative oppression and privilege. this allows us a more complete and holistic view of the kyriarchy as it actually functions.
for example, the antisemitism and oppression of women that characterizes many arab states would give them a low score on the tolerance axis, while the support of lgbt rights in the west would give them a comparably high 'tolerance' score (even while their privilege viewed in isolation might also be higher)
by applying this new 'tolerance' axis to our privilege matrix, we actually come to a number of surprising conclusions. for example, liberal westerners, now become (relatively speaking), one of the most oppressed peoples in the world!
ed: i realize some of this may be a little hard to visualize, so here's a short video i put together that should give a better idea of what i'm talking about:
Edited by postposting ()
The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
people in israel are straight up publicly calling for genocide of Palestinians and arabs in general, you stupid motherfucker!!!! Dumb fuck!~!!! turn off CNN turn off the wolf blitzer!!!
chickeon posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
people in israel are straight up publicly calling for genocide of Palestinians and arabs in general, you stupid motherfucker!!!! Dumb fuck!~!!! turn off CNN turn off the wolf blitzer!!!
in a war with bombs and shit, is calling for genocide a serious thing now? remind me again why everyone is all touchy about that.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:chickeon posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
people in israel are straight up publicly calling for genocide of Palestinians and arabs in general, you stupid motherfucker!!!! Dumb fuck!~!!! turn off CNN turn off the wolf blitzer!!!
in a war with bombs and shit, is calling for genocide a serious thing now? remind me again why everyone is all touchy about that.
so you're totally cool with palestinians getting genocided because its being done by jews, who are apparently the same as israelis, and have a free genocide pass because some other jews (many of whom have come out against the israeli state's oppression!!) were the targets of a genocide?
The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
i'm going to murder you, man. i'M going to put you in the fuicking GROUND
worthless posted:
c_man posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:chickeon posted:The_Boourns_Identity posted:c_man posted:since the OP is almost certainly an american, you are materially supporting israel and therefore you should probably care more if they're going to imprison entire populations and then bomb them, than if the people they imprison and then massacre are angry about it in an ugly way.
I agree, I'm just saying that the anti-semitism on the side fighting zionism is counterproductive and really unchill
people in israel are straight up publicly calling for genocide of Palestinians and arabs in general, you stupid motherfucker!!!! Dumb fuck!~!!! turn off CNN turn off the wolf blitzer!!!
in a war with bombs and shit, is calling for genocide a serious thing now? remind me again why everyone is all touchy about that.
so you're totally cool with palestinians getting genocided because its being done by jews, who are apparently the same as israelis, and have a free genocide pass because some other jews (many of whom have come out against the israeli state's oppression!!) were the targets of a genocide?
no what is being done to palestinians is wrong. Israel ≠ Jews. and nothing can justify a genocide, although i bet there are some "leftists" who might accept a genocide if the targets were like Nazis in some sort of Quentin Tarentino style inglorious bastards turnaround where the Jews took over an area and surrounded a Nazi community and put them under siege and they won't ever give up. In this case, so many progressive leftists would cheer and smile in glee as they watched the Bear Jew go down the line splitting skulls in an effort to finish them off. or maybe not, idk, but I do know when you start playing with these different perspectives you might be able to see how fucking sensitive something like anti-semitism is to Israelis.
Of course we can't equate the palestinians to Nazi's, i'm not trying to do that, they don't have the power structure, the ideological structure, the political power, etc. etc. etc. for it to make any sense. however, i think here the signifier comes before the signified, so that even though a Nazi party supporter spouting off hate speech about "getting rid of every Jew" and a Palestinian orphan child with scars who dreams of "killing all the Jews" are actually speaking from very different places and therefore have very different intended meaning in their words, when those words land on the ears of a Jewish Israeli who grew up hearing stories about concentration camps, it triggers just as much fear.
All I'm saying is that if we really want there to be peace and want to ease the suffering of the palestinians then we must see this perspective.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:Of course we can't equate the palestinians to Nazi's, i'm not trying to do that, they don't have the power structure, the ideological structure, the political power, etc. etc. etc. for it to make any sense. however, i think here the signifier comes before the signified, so that even though a Nazi party supporter spouting off hate speech about "getting rid of every Jew" and a Palestinian orphan child with scars who dreams of "killing all the Jews" are actually speaking from very different places and therefore have very different intended meaning in their words, when those words land on the ears of a Jewish Israeli who grew up hearing stories about concentration camps, it triggers just as much fear.
All I'm saying is that if we really want there to be peace and want to ease the suffering of the palestinians then we must see this perspective.
oh wont someone think of the poor israelis, who will think of the israelis and their traumatized pets living in fear of a minority population because right wing racist politicians have told them that hamas=hitler and are going to concentration camp them just like what happened to their friend's brother's uncle's sister-in-law's dad. woe is them. meanwhile the palestinians are walled up inside a bombing range and won't even have the decency to think about how much they are triggering the israelis.
The_Boourns_Identity posted:Israelis are people too, and if you want the nation of Israel to do a thing, you should treat them with dignity and respect like a human being and maybe they might be more inclined to be less monstrous
lmao thanks neville, i'm sure if we just appease them they'll do their business and be done. what they really wanted was a friend, all along!
a revolution is emphatically NOT an insurrection -- an act of violence by which one class overthrows another. ffs
A wise person would understand that a great evil had been prevented and celebrate that, even if he was concerned about violence towards german non-combatants
The_Boourns_Identity posted:even though a Nazi party supporter spouting off hate speech about "getting rid of every Jew" and a Palestinian orphan child with scars who dreams of "killing all the Jews" are actually speaking from very different places
yeah the second one is just something you made up for yer weird liberal fantasy
I'd see things differentyl if my family lived there
