#1001

NoFreeWill posted:

I think shes saying people have always been xenophobic fuckheads.



sit down

#1002
i made a point above, about eugenics, that is maybe being ignored? let me place it more firmly in historical context. assuming we're talking about america. around the end of the 19th, start of the 20th century, there was vigorous debate about immigration restrictions. there had already been restrictions placed on chinese immigration, this was certainly spurred in large part by organised political scapegoating over economic hardships. there were also restrictions on immigrants who were undesirable for reasons other than race (feeble, insane, anarchist, etc). but the debate took an explicitly eugenic turn and it's arguable that this had far more influence on moves to restrict immigration of e.g. slavs, than any sincere economic concerns,

c.f. 'National Eugenics in Relation to Immigration', Robert DeCourcy Ward (1910)

"The study of agencies under social control that may improve or impair the racial qualities of future generations either physically or mentally" - that is the definition of National Eugenics.

To put it bluntly, eugenics has to do with breeding human beings for the betterment of the human race...

We in the United States have a very special interest in national eugenics, for we are here forming a new race of an extraordinarily heterogeneous character, and we have a remarkably favorable opportunity for practising eugenic principles in the selection of the fathers and mothers of future American children through our power to regulate alien immigration...

Truly, this is a "melting-pot" for all the nations and peoples of the world. Into it we have allowed Europe, and even Asia and Africa, to throw every sort of material, while we ourselves have been blissfully - shall we not rather say criminally? - careless as to what the final product is to be. Will the new American type be a superior or an inferior one?..

In the light of the evidence which is available, it seems to the writer that the burden of proof is distinctly upon those who hold that the new American race will be a better, stronger, more intelligent race, and not a weak and possibly degenerate mongrel...

For the sake of argument, let us admit that a mixture of race stocks, such as is going on in this country, is desirable. Is it not apparent that the individuals who are to be the progenitors of the mixed stock should at least be as good, mentally and physically, as the average of those already here if there is not to be a gradual degeneration of our people? In other words, is not careful selection of our immigrants of extreme importance?..

In the United States the low and falling birth-rate is principally confined to the Anglo-Saxon element, and the tendency to multiply more rapidly is found among the less intelligent, the most recent immigrants. This clearly operates to bring about a tremendously rapid change in the race.

Most of us have met these questions of our falling birth-rate, and of the production of a new race in our country, with the doctrine of the "survival of the fittest." We have said: "After all, it is a question of the 'survival of the fittest,' and if we are not the fittest we must, of course, go under." This whole belief is based upon an erroneous conception of the meaning of the "survival of the fittest." What Spencer and what Darwin really meant was the survival not of the "best," but of those most fitted to survive. These are not necessarily most fitted for any other purpose than mere survival...

Professor Pearson has pointed out that the "survival of the fittest" practically means the survival of the most fertile. It is a marked characteristic of modern city life, as Heron has shown, that those least fitted, mentally and morally, survive. The "survival of the fittest," therefore, often means racial degeneration...

We have noted some of the main points of contact between our problem of alien immigration and the science of national eugenics. How far do our present immigration laws enable us to keep out those who are physically, mentally and morally undesirable for parenthood; whose coming here will tend to produce an inferior rather than a superior American race; who are eugenically unfit for race culture? We in the United States have an opportunity which is unique in history for the practice of eugenic principles. Our country was founded and developed by picked men and women. And to-day, by selecting our immigrants through proper immigration legislation, we have the power to pick out the best specimens of each race to be the parents of our future citizens. But we have left the choice almost altogether to the selfish interests which do not care whether we want the immigrants they bring, or whether the immigrants will be the better for coming. Steamship agents and brokers all over Europe and western Asia are to-day deciding for us the character of the American race of the future.

It is no argument against practising eugenic ideas in the selection of our alien immigrants to say that our New England country towns are full of hopelessly degenerate native Americans who are inferior, mentally, morally and physically, to the "sturdy peasants of Europe." It will not help to reduce the number of our native degenerates if we admit alien degenerates. National eugenics means the prevention of the breeding of the unfit native, no less than the prevention of the admission, and of the breeding after admission, of the unfit alien.

Should we not exercise the same care in admitting human beings as we exercise in relation to animals or insect pests or disease germs? Yet it is true that we have actually been taking more care in the selection, and in the examination for soundness and for health, of a Hereford bull or a Southdown ewe, imported for the improvement of our cattle and sheep, than we have taken in the selection of the alien men and women who are coming here to be the fathers and mothers of future American children. We do not hesitate to prohibit the importation of cattle from a foreign country where the foot and mouth disease is prevalent. It is only in very extreme cases that we have ever taken such a step in the case of the importation of aliens, yet there are certain parts of Europe from which it would be better for the American race if no aliens at all were admitted. Our present laws are intended to exclude some twenty or more classes of mentally, physically, morally and economically undesirable aliens. The list is formidable and seems abundantly sufficient to accomplish adequate eugenic selection. But careful and unprejudiced students of immigration agree that these laws do not keep out the unfit so as to preserve the status quo, and certainly do not promote eugenic improvement. We already have an army of not less than 150,000 feeble-minded in the United States, of whom only a very small percentage are in institutions, the rest being free to propagate their kind. And of those in institutions the large proportion are there only temporarily, being at liberty for much of the time during their reproductive period. Further, there are over 150,000 insane in the institutions of this country, and of these many have already left offspring to perpetuate their insanity. In spite of these appalling facts, appalling from the standpoint of mere sentiment and of mere philanthropy, doubly appalling from the standpoint of eugenics, we have been admitting alien insane, and alien imbeciles, and alien epileptics, and alien habitual criminals, partly because of a lax enforcement of the law under past administrations, partly because the law is incapable, under existing conditions, of effective enforcement. Parenthood on the part of the insane, the imbecile, the feeble-minded, the hereditary criminal, and those afflicted with hereditary disease, is a crime against the future. To admit such persons into this country is no less a crime against the future.

#1003

NoFreeWill posted:

I think shes saying people have always been xenophobic fuckheads.



#1004

NoFreeWill posted:

c_man posted:

.custom252330{}NoFreeWill posted:that's interesting, tell me more about how all fascists are petit bourgeois
tell me more about being a philosophy student who cant be bothered to read books about philosophy

i'm not a philosophy student and what book are you talking about?



idk what book s/he has in mind but Anatomy of Fascism by robert paxton is worthwhile imo

#1005
mods change name to Tom Petty-Bourgeois and the Fartmakers
#1006
anecdotally, regardless of their actual class background, the fascists ive encountered all identify with the petite-boushies. reactionary sentiments turn into full blown fascism when liberalism degenerates to a point where the perceived actualization of petite-bourgeoisie determination is no longer tenable under the current system, hence the appeal to proles with a false class consciousness

#1007

NoFreeWill posted:

c_man posted:

oh idk why i thought you were then. and any books that describe the things we are talking about, there are lots of books on marxist theory

marxist theory ain't philosophy and Hegel sucks.



you haven't really qualified yourself as anything except a man with opinions on stuff you don't even want to investigate superficially. iconoclasm can be helpful to interrogate your surroundings sure but that isn't really what you're doing so don't attempt to replace genuine understanding with posturing (marxist "philosophy"/Hegel's "dumb") otherwise embarrassing things like what Crow just did to you will continue to happen for like, a long time.

#1008
it's true, rosa lichtenstein disproved hegel and established that marxism is actually anti-philosophy / scientific. read up anti-dialectics dot co dot uk
#1009

TheIneff posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

c_man posted:

oh idk why i thought you were then. and any books that describe the things we are talking about, there are lots of books on marxist theory

marxist theory ain't philosophy and Hegel sucks.

you haven't really qualified yourself as anything except a man with opinions on stuff you don't even want to investigate superficially. iconoclasm can be helpful to interrogate your surroundings sure but that isn't really what you're doing so don't attempt to replace genuine understanding with posturing (marxist "philosophy"/Hegel's "dumb") otherwise embarrassing things like what Crow just did to you will continue to happen for like, a long time.

#1010

Crow posted:


pls dont dox me

#1011

WildStalins posted:

idk what book s/he has in mind but Anatomy of Fascism by robert paxton is worthwhile imo



this book is good as pseudo-trot analysis goes & i recommend it especially as david neiwert has made its definition of the term into liberal blog orthodoxy over the last 10 years

#1012

AmericanNazbro posted:

anecdotally, regardless of their actual class background, the fascists ive encountered all identify with the petite-boushies. reactionary sentiments turn into full blown fascism when liberalism degenerates to a point where the perceived actualization of petite-bourgeoisie determination is no longer tenable under the current system, hence the appeal to proles with a false class consciousness



the self described fascists ive encountered are all neurotic and extremely socially retarded

#1013

daddyholes posted:

AmericanNazbro posted:

anecdotally, regardless of their actual class background, the fascists ive encountered all identify with the petite-boushies. reactionary sentiments turn into full blown fascism when liberalism degenerates to a point where the perceived actualization of petite-bourgeoisie determination is no longer tenable under the current system, hence the appeal to proles with a false class consciousness

the self described fascists ive encountered are all neurotic and extremely socially retarded



Well yeah in the absence of class struggle and concrete demands by a militant movement they're pretty much petite bourgeois role players much like trostykites

#1014

roseweird posted:

Themselves posted:

What interests do you have aside from basic needs and wants along with having the time and means to pursue creative endeavors as you so desire?

the propagation of my language, culture, and genetics. the ability to see my beliefs and values reflected in the behavior of others. the prosperity of my children and of their children. the ability to exert social control over others for reasons unrelated to labor and profit.



Why do you need to "propagate" in order to feel good? Are you a disease of some sort? Why do you have a requirement to exercise social control over others?

#1015
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#1016
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#1017
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#1018

roseweird posted:

Themselves posted:

Why do you need to "propagate" in order to feel good? Are you a disease of some sort? Why do you have a requirement to exercise social control over others?

well, why do you feel the need to respond to me and try to get me to agree with you



im curious about the beliefs you hold

reproduction is different than endless propagation and now I dont know what your initial statement really meant.

#1019
hmm its almost as if there are differing modes of production, or reproduction..... historically differing modes...
#1020

fleights posted:

NoFreeWill posted:

I think shes saying people have always been xenophobic fuckheads.



yo u arranged the panels incorrectly on this comic

#1021

roseweird posted:

Petrol posted:

i made a point above, about eugenics, that is maybe being ignored?

yeah. why do you think it is being ignored?


Because you touch yourself at night.

#1022
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#1023
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#1024
its all of our business how all of us do it, that's called organizing society, its a basic premise of Marx, the reproduction of life.... maybe you should check him out?
#1025

roseweird posted:

that's a possibility but i think actually it is because it would be difficult or impossible to have a real open discussion on eugenics without talking uncomfortably about the eugenic ideas underlying much socialist revolutionary discourse and observing broad agreement and similarity on this issue across the political map.


Oh. lol. I'm sorry you feel that way. I mean I'm aware of leftist eugenicists but i didn't think the problem was so widespread? I suppose that goes to one of the fundamental problems I have always had with Marx tbh - I am leery of any socio-political theory that is an evolutionary theory, especially when it explicitly claims to be scientific...

But yeah why would we want to talk about these matters. Ha.

#1026

roseweird posted:

without talking uncomfortably about the eugenic ideas underlying much socialist revolutionary discourse



ha ha Bull Sh*t

#1027
why's everyone mad about eugenics like we as a species have never engaged in eugenic behavior before or something
#1028
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#1029
she died, rip, peperony and chease
#1030
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#1031
i agree
#1032
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#1033
conec left after i ifapped her with stupid sexy flanders
#1034
https://twitter.com/c0nec
#1035
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#1036
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#1037

tpaine posted:

what happened to conec



lost her password or something

#1038
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#1039
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#1040
reminder that every single person who has ever refused to sexhave with you was an actively practicing Eugenicist