NoFreeWill posted:it's great that you guys think fascism is astro-turfed by the bourgeois when actually it's an expression of the proletariat's real concerns and feelings.
oh right I said i was going to probate fascists here
NoFreeWill posted:mexicans employed at illegal wages taking our agricultural jobs, definitely a good thing.
so the problem here isnt capitalism but the mexicans and illegal wages
tell me more about the alluring attributes of fascism that's an expression of your "friends" real concerns and feelings
Greetings, librarian, my name is Peebus Chorb, and I... err, I mean my friend, would like to inquire about this author "Adolf Hitler". My friend has heard some great things about his oeuvre...
look at all these proletariat business owners in the tea party
oh boy
check out these banker retiree proletariat going over to Ukraine to form punitive fascist battalions
I just cant understand
why all these white middle aged men
who work in offices
and drive nice cars
are fascist
it must be that theyre legitimate proletariat
Crow posted:do you know what astroturf means
you know, i didn't and i went to look this up, and holy shit this shit goes back and it goes deep!
AstroTurf is a brand of artificial turf. The original AstroTurf product was a short-pile synthetic turf. The prime reason to incorporate AstroTurf on game fields was to avoid the cost of laying natural turf, especially indoors.
The original AstroTurf brand product was co-invented in 1965 by Donald L. Elbert, James M. Faria and Robert T. Wright. It was patented in 1965 and originally sold under the name "ChemGrass." It was re-branded as AstroTurf by company employee John A. Wortmann after its first well-publicized use at the Houston Astrodome stadium in 1966.
Early iterations of the short pile turf swept the major stadia, but the product did need improvement. Concerns over directionality and traction led Monsanto's R&D department to implement a texturized nylon system. By imparting a crimped texture to the nylon after it was extruded, the product became highly uniform.
In 1987, Monsanto consolidated its AstroTurf management, marketing, and technical activities in Dalton, Georgia(possibly the location of the superabound posting AI??), as AstroTurf Industries, Inc. In 1988, Balsam AG purchased all the capital stock of AstroTurf Industries, Inc. In 1994, Southwest Recreational Industries, Inc. (SRI) acquired the AstroTurf brand. In 1996, SRI was acquired by American Sports Products Group Inc. (ASPG).
While AstroTurf was the industry leader throughout the late 20th century, other companies emerged in the early 2000s. FieldTurf, AstroTurf's chief competitor in the early 2000s and today, marketed a product of tall pile polyethylene turf with infill. This third generation turf, as it became known, changed the landscape of the marketplace. Although SRI successfully marketed AstroPlay, a third generation turf product, increased competition gave way to lawsuits. In 2000, SRI was awarded $1.5 million in a lawsuit after FieldTurf was deemed to have lied to the public by making false statements regarding its own product and making false claims about AstroTurf and AstroPlay products.
Despite their legal victory, increased competition took its toll. In 2004, SRI declared bankruptcy. Out of the bankruptcy proceedings, Textile Management Associates, Inc. (TMA) of Dalton, GA, acquired the AstroTurf brand and other assets. TMA began marketing the AstroTurf brand under the company AstroTurf, LLC. In 2006, General Sports Venue (GSV) became TMA’s marketing partner for the AstroTurf brand for the American market. AstroTurf, LLC handled the marketing of AstroTurf in the rest of the world.
In 2009, TMA acquired GSV in order to enter the marketplace as a direct seller. Despite baggage associated with the bankruptcy of the former brand owners, AstroTurf, LLC focused its efforts on research and development, which has promoted rapid growth since the acquisition. AstroTurf introduced a variety of innovative product features and installation methods, including AstroFlect (a heat reduction technology) and field prefabrication (indoor, climate-controlled inlaying). Sales of the 3D products, which feature a "RootZone" of crimped fibers designed to encapsulate infill have especially grown. Adopters of the RootZone technology include professional organizations and colleges across the U.S.
connect the dots, people
Crow posted:class is about the relationship to the means of production. cheap immigrant labor *is* the proletariat. assholes itching to shoot up their cubicle in santa monica are probably not
yeah theyre the revolutionary vanguard lol
jools posted:fascist movements are usually composed of people from all classes anyway. that's relatively meaningless.
and yet to talk about it as proletariat ideology is utter nonsense
jools posted:like because of this supposed class content we should look at The Raider Nation for where leftists should be concerned, even though both The Raider Nation and fascist movements are lead and bankrolled by uhhhh capitalists and their puppets
i have no idea what youre talking about. is this some sort of exiled thing
Crow posted:jools posted:fascist movements are usually composed of people from all classes anyway. that's relatively meaningless.
and yet to talk about it as proletariat ideology is utter nonsense
jools posted:like because of this supposed class content we should look at The Raider Nation for where leftists should be concerned, even though both The Raider Nation and fascist movements are lead and bankrolled by uhhhh capitalists and their puppets
i have no idea what youre talking about. is this some sort of exiled thing
the point im making is that taking political cues from fascist movements due to some alleged class content is fucking stupid
it would also probably be a good idea for people on the left not to flee wildly active political territories like Guns and Religion in droves, forever ceding those entire battlegrounds and the people left behind on them to future generations of their political enemies without even putting up a fight.
NoFreeWill posted:daddyholes posted:well why does that work? why are many europeans, and europeans of a specific class, worried about immigrants? what would cause a lot of people in one country to get upset that people are coming in from another country with lower average incomes and standards of living?
it's almost like immigration is an important issue and the left has no good arguments on it, also the people seeing the effects of it don't like it. it's great that you guys think fascism is astro-turfed by the bourgeois when actually it's an expression of the proletariat's real concerns and feelings.
Fascism is cosmetically the appropriation of the socialist revolutionary facade in order to satisfy the worker's revolutionary sentiments.
jools posted:btw crow do you have any reading recommendations on the 1993 moscow uprising
oi have this book right here dude http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-October-Moscow-Alexander-Buzgalin/dp/0853458960/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=
Superabound posted:i think that, people ready and willing or even just psychologically at risk of committing violence have always had an inextricable and perhaps fundamental and necessary role throughout human history, and even if you dont consider Violence to be a useful tool in This Day And Age of Dat Good Good White Civilization then its almost certain that your political enemies DO, so either way it still seems like a good idea to have as many of these violent people on your side as possible, even if (especially if?) they dont commit a violence, and even if you have to do so by addressing, possibly through (the same) lip service (you pay everyone else), their actual material and ideological concerns, regardless of how provincial or "unsophisticated" they might be
it would also probably be a good idea for people on the left not to flee wildly active political territories like Guns and Religion in droves, forever ceding those entire battlegrounds and the people left behind on them to future generations of their political enemies without even putting up a fight.
well see, this is kinda from whence my thought process began: it would be quite a disadvantage to The Left if fascism had a, shall we say, natural advantage when it comes to recruiting people with, ah.. Militant tendencies. i think, though, since this conversation has gone on long enough for me to consider my position more fully, that i was proceeding from faulty premises. the militancy, or bolshiness, of politically aligned groups, probably varies regionally, cultural/historical factors would play a big part.
i agree in principle that it is foolish for the left to leave Gun/Religion territory to be swept up by tea party style movements. what do you propose?
Crow posted:jools posted:btw crow do you have any reading recommendations on the 1993 moscow uprising
oi have this book right here dude http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-October-Moscow-Alexander-Buzgalin/dp/0853458960/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=
many thanks
Superabound posted:it would also probably be a good idea for people on the left not to flee wildly active political territories like Guns and Religion in droves, forever ceding those entire battlegrounds and the people left behind on them to future generations of their political enemies without even putting up a fight.
nobody on the left does, only liberals do. i hate post modernism most of all for the fact that liberalism has been falsely equated with "the left" and liberals continually insert themselves into leftist spaces. the left is an aggregation of peoples whose ideological goals are the dismantlement of the structures of cpaitalism—which is antithetical to the aims of liberalism. there may be some "radical" liberals within the sphere of the left (chomsky comes to mind) but they are the exceptions and imo they exist more as an ideological glass ceiling for leftist thought used by hegemony to define and limit "acceptable" boundaries of ideology. i mean, the right can openly discuss the ruling class, and their activities (ie infowars, zerohedge) but within "the left" any type of discussion dealing with the very real occurrences of ruling class collusion, it's instantly met with opprobrium. nobody to my knowledge has condemned zerohedge for pointing out arab spring and euromaiden were western backed coups employing snipers to assassinate protesters to cause riots. but when naomi wolf asked the legitimate question regarding foley & co. military connections, instantly there is a Vox dot com article voxsplaining she is insane and that leftists should not associate with such thinking.
Petrol posted:Superabound posted:i think that, people ready and willing or even just psychologically at risk of committing violence have always had an inextricable and perhaps fundamental and necessary role throughout human history, and even if you dont consider Violence to be a useful tool in This Day And Age of Dat Good Good White Civilization then its almost certain that your political enemies DO, so either way it still seems like a good idea to have as many of these violent people on your side as possible, even if (especially if?) they dont commit a violence, and even if you have to do so by addressing, possibly through (the same) lip service (you pay everyone else), their actual material and ideological concerns, regardless of how provincial or "unsophisticated" they might be
it would also probably be a good idea for people on the left not to flee wildly active political territories like Guns and Religion in droves, forever ceding those entire battlegrounds and the people left behind on them to future generations of their political enemies without even putting up a fight.well see, this is kinda from whence my thought process began: it would be quite a disadvantage to The Left if fascism had a, shall we say, natural advantage when it comes to recruiting people with, ah.. Militant tendencies. i think, though, since this conversation has gone on long enough for me to consider my position more fully, that i was proceeding from faulty premises. the militancy, or bolshiness, of politically aligned groups, probably varies regionally, cultural/historical factors would play a big part.
i agree in principle that it is foolish for the left to leave Gun/Religion territory to be swept up by tea party style movements. what do you propose?
AmericanNazbro posted:Superabound posted:it would also probably be a good idea for people on the left not to flee wildly active political territories like Guns and Religion in droves, forever ceding those entire battlegrounds and the people left behind on them to future generations of their political enemies without even putting up a fight.
nobody on the left does, only liberals do. i hate post modernism most of all for the fact that liberalism has been falsely equated with "the left" and liberals continually insert themselves into leftist spaces. the left is an aggregation of peoples whose ideological goals are the dismantlement of the structures of cpaitalism—which is antithetical to the aims of liberalism. there may be some "radical" liberals within the sphere of the left (chomsky comes to mind) but they are the exceptions and imo they exist more as an ideological glass ceiling for leftist thought used by hegemony to define and limit "acceptable" boundaries of ideology. i mean, the right can openly discuss the ruling class, and their activities (ie infowars, zerohedge) but within "the left" any type of discussion dealing with the very real occurrences of ruling class collusion, it's instantly met with opprobrium. nobody to my knowledge has condemned zerohedge for pointing out arab spring and euromaiden were western backed coups employing snipers to assassinate protesters to cause riots. but when naomi wolf asked the legitimate question regarding foley & co. military connections, instantly there is a Vox dot com article voxsplaining she is insane and that leftists should not associate with such thinking.
AmericanNazbro posted:anyways where is IWC because nofreewill is a poor imitation IWC and i miss that ole cointelbro
he got swept up in that big oz thing recently on charges of providing material support to terrorboys,,, Free IWC, inshallah
Crow posted:class is about the relationship to the means of production. cheap immigrant labor *is* the proletariat. assholes itching to shoot up their cubicle in santa monica are probably not
neither of those people own the means of production, so they're both proletarian according to your own logic.
Crow posted:.custom252131{}NoFreeWill posted:it's great that you guys think fascism is astro-turfed by the bourgeois when actually it's an expression of the proletariat's real concerns and feelings.
oh right I said i was going to probate fascists here
Telling people that you know better than them their true interests never works. The People love fascism, sorry.
NoFreeWill was probated until (Oct. 24, 2014 14:26:02) for this post!
NoFreeWill posted:Crow posted:class is about the relationship to the means of production. cheap immigrant labor *is* the proletariat. assholes itching to shoot up their cubicle in santa monica are probably not
neither of those people own the means of production, so they're both proletarian according to your own logic.
pls know what you are talking about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisie
NoFreeWill posted:Crow posted:class is about the relationship to the means of production. cheap immigrant labor *is* the proletariat. assholes itching to shoot up their cubicle in santa monica are probably not
neither of those people own the means of production, so they're both proletarian according to your own logic.
haha. anyway
Greg Butterfield
3 hrs ·
On the anti-gay law in Lugansk
It has been reported that the Lugansk People’s Republic recently reintroduced a Soviet-era law criminalizing homosexuality. It carries a possible sentence of 2 to 5 years.
We oppose this law because it obstructs the broadest unity and solidarity of the working class in the struggle against oligarchy, fascism and imperialism in Donbass and Ukraine.
We hope the law will be rescinded quickly.
For anti-fascists and anti-imperialists in the West, where the struggle of LGBTQ people has won an important place in the people’s movement, the Lugansk law is jarring. But it is important for us to understand the context.
In Ukraine, and in Russia, U.S. and European-backed NGOs have played a critical role in promoting right-wing, counter-revolutionary, and pro-imperialist movements like EuroMaidan. Bourgeois LGBTQ organizations have had a very visible role in this process, just as bourgeois women’s organizations were used as a cover to promote imperialist intervention in Afghanistan more than a decade ago.
The U.S. and other imperialist countries use these organizations as tools primarily for domestic consumption, to disorient and divide the progressive forces here. They don’t care what impact it has on LGBTQ people in Ukraine or Russia, who then have their experience associated in the public mind with imperialist subversion.
And what has been the impact of the Maidan coup?
For Lugansk and its neighbor, the Donetsk People’s Republic, it has meant a civil war. The Ukrainian military, fueled by fascist shock troops, have for the last seven months carried out endless war crimes targeting civilians. According to the UN, about 1,500 people were killed in the so-called “Anti-Terrorist Operation.” This estimate, terrible as it is, is ridiculously low. Donetsk says that there are at least 1,300 people missing from its territory, and 400 unidentified bodies in morgues. It also doesn’t include the bodies now turning up almost daily in mass graves in areas liberated from the Ukrainian National Guard, the 48+ anti-fascist activists killed in Odessa, or the victims of the Malaysian Airlines provocation.
While LGBTQ organizations were used to promote Maidan in the West, the coup has not meant more freedom or liberation for queers in western Ukraine. On the contrary, Kiev’s right-wing mayor cancelled this year’s Pride march under pressure from the fascist gangs that rule the streets there, even though the march was supposed to be pro-coup. Members of the neo-Nazi Svoboda party, one of the leaders of the coup regime, were caught on camera terrorizing people at a gay nightclub. And so on.
In the former Soviet Union, there has not been an uprising of working-class LGBTQ people like Stonewall that makes their struggle visible and demands to be included in the revolutionary and working class movement. Nor has there been an opportunity for the kind of organized “coming out” supported by societal institutions like we have seen in socialist Cuba over the last two decades.
What is the best way that anti-fascists and solidarity activists in the West can help create space for LGBTQ revolutionaries and anti-fascists in Donbass, Ukraine and Russia?
Not by moralizing or threatening withdrawal of support from people who are under attack by imperialism.
Rather, showing solidarity – especially, encouraging expressions of LGBTQ solidarity with the struggle of Donbass and the anti-fascists of Ukraine – can help to open people’s eyes, make them start asking questions, and eventually open up political space for LGBTQ people there to organize in the context of the people’s movement, in whatever way makes sense for them.
For example, last June, the International Action Center, Workers World Party and Fight Imperialism, Stand Together made a strong intervention at the LGBTQ Pride Parade in New York in solidarity with Ukraine anti-fascists and the Donbass people’s republics. It had an impact. Our signs and photos were reblogged and commented on by friend and foe alike in Ukraine and Donbass for weeks afterward. It was a revelation for many.
Similar approaches have been successfully used in the past in the Cuba solidarity and political prisoner movements. We need more.
Most important, we should never forget who is really the greatest enemy of LGBTQ people and all people struggling for liberation around the world: U.S. imperialism.
It is the U.S. that engineers fascist and right-wing coups to protect its military interests and targets LGBTQ people, from Honduras to Ukraine and beyond. It is the U.S. that promotes and protects racist homophobes like Christian fundamentalist Scott Lively, who travel the world inciting anti-LGBTQ hate from Uganda to Russia under the guise of “religious freedom.”
The defeat of the U.S. imperialism in Donbass or anywhere opens up political space and possibility for people to fight for their liberation, for the development of solidarity among the working class and oppressed, regardless of any conjunctural, temporary problems like the Lugansk law.
NoFreeWill posted:Crow posted:.custom252131{}NoFreeWill posted:it's great that you guys think fascism is astro-turfed by the bourgeois when actually it's an expression of the proletariat's real concerns and feelings.
oh right I said i was going to probate fascists here
Telling people that you know better than them their true interests never works. The People love fascism, sorry.
cmon dude that's a softball
c_man posted:.custom252308{}NoFreeWill posted:.custom252163{color:#000000 !important; background-color:#E3E3E3 !important; }Crow posted:class is about the relationship to the means of production. cheap immigrant labor *is* the proletariat. assholes itching to shoot up their cubicle in santa monica are probably not
neither of those people own the means of production, so they're both proletarian according to your own logic.
pls know what you are talking about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_bourgeoisie
they aren't "semi-autonomous peasants" or "small merchants"