#81

Petrol posted:

swampman posted:

it is objectively a good thing that several young people in Austin are calling themselves Maoists and behaving like a paramilitary even if they release hilarious exaggerated propaganda about barely-comprehensible scraps with other Amerikan left orgs

Is it? You're basically saying the only really important thing about being a Maoist is adopting the label.


gotta normalize the M Word

#82
If their politics are bad they won't be around for very long
#83
Did you read the same article and watch the same video we did? Their politics are clearly bullshit.
#84

c_man posted:

When an organized group walks up ready and able to kick your ass, proper de-escalation consists of retreating.


this is total garbage. every single time the police show up at a strike, a blm action, or anything their goal is to provoke a violent response and make an arrest.


absolutely not the same thing. The police are ready to kick the asses of peaceful protesters but they aren't able. To engage in mass ass-kicking they have to, as you say, provoke a response, that even the extremely macho idiots among protesters are fairly trained not to offer. Arresting people is different from kicking their ass, it is a form of provocation that hopes for a power struggle against a clear police advantage. There are often non-violent arrests which would turn into scenes of mass police brutality if anyone attempted "de-arresting" the comrade.

This RGA squad did not need a provocation, inter-organizational talks did not fail - they walked up and literally said what they were about to do. You can't de-escalate against someone who says "I am about to attack you" and has the full power to do it. You have to fight back, take a beating, or leave the situation.

Edited by swampman ()

#85

Petrol posted:

Did you read the same article and watch the same video we did? Their politics are clearly bullshit.


Yeah and they're not even able to operate under the "Red Guards" banner anymore. If their politics have only provided them with one mission - to stamp out roadside PSL protests in Austin - then they are either going to accomplish it and sputter out, get massively fucked up in the trying, or change their behavior. None of these are particularly terrible outcomes, even though I admit, that saxophone did hit some resonant frequencies that put hairline fractures in the very foundation of Empire

#86
The saxophone made me laugh, but that's not saying much when I'm desperate for relief from the extreme cringe both parties were giving me in that video. I mean I'm not taking sides here. I'm just puzzled why you'd think The Clowns Formerly Known As RGA are at all defensible. They're fuckin asshole wreckers, the only concern they've ever had is wrecking other left orgs, it hardly matters whether you agree with the ideology or praxis of the victim orgs.
#87
I don't care about their ideology, really. Like what does it matter if I agree with the RGA in some way. I personally would not do what they did to the WWP/PSL rally and I'm not like, filled with glee by this kind of thing. It's just not something to get mad about. Honestly it's the best kind of harassment you could receive because the Amerikan public isn't going to applaud the RGA doing this and there's probably not an FBI helicopter that can grenade 10 grandmas / minute that can back them up. It seems like such a known quantity, that Austin leftists should feel a bit foolish when they do get caught by the RGA kids.
#88

swampman posted:

absolutely not the same thing. The police are ready to kick the asses of peaceful protesters but they aren't able. To engage in mass ass-kicking they have to, as you say, provoke a response, that even the extremely macho idiots among protesters are fairly trained not to offer. Arresting people is different from kicking their ass, it is a form of provocation that hopes for a power struggle against a clear police advantage. There are often non-violent arrests which would turn into scenes of mass police brutality if anyone attempted "de-arresting" the comrade.

This RGA squad did not need a provocation, inter-organizational talks did not fail - they walked up and literally said what they were about to do. You can't de-escalate against someone who says "I am about to attack you" and has the full power to do it. You have to fight back, take a beating, or leave the situation.


again, this shows that you have absolutely no experience with what youre talking about. a major part of preparation for any antifascist rallies, events where arrests are possible, etc, have to deal with when violence does break out in spite of de-escalation attempts. these constitute a broad array of strategies that work to put you and your comrades in a position of the most safety when this does happen, while attempting to prevent it from happening at all, while making sure the most vulnerable can be helped.

police only need to convince other police that they didnt start anything, they can often act with impunity as long as they cover each other well. confrontations with fascists similarly dont have magical rules that you can invoke to protect you if things go south, which, as fascists, their goal is to provoke a violent response since they have the machinery of the state on their side. my point is that these are important strategies and organization tools that are common knowledge in many places but apparently totally alien to you, which leads you to present a totally false dichotomy in terms of the organizational possibilities.

#89

swampman posted:


To be clear I didn't say anything about whether or not you agree with RGA ideologically, I think you misunderstood my last post?

Anyway, this drama is not something I'm mad about, I'm just totally confused about your position, which seems to be that you don't agree with RGA but you're also glad they exist, and I can't work out why.

#90
RGA has the same infinitessimal numbers and lack of strategy as the wwpsl but they still dictate the terms because they showed up with a plan to accomplish something and they did it. Then they left. Then they told everyone they did it and they'll do it again. Now people have to react to them.

If your multi-party alliance can't field more than 3 people or avoid getting wedgies from the first rude dudes that show up, its a pretty good sign that you desperately need to change tactics and work on fixing that if you want to continue operating. If someone other than RGA taught them this someone would be in jail or the hospital.

They're like the level 1 boss, if you can't figure out how to deal with these guys the nazi level is probably going to be a bit of a challenge for you.
#91

Petrol posted:

Anyway, this drama is not something I'm mad about, I'm just totally confused about your position, which seems to be that you don't agree with RGA but you're also glad they exist, and I can't work out why.

i was reacting to the initial reaction in thread of like "ugh these people are so stupid and embarrassing"... their choice of conflict is kind of wacky, but they're also tackling a goal they're capable of achieving and doing it in a serious manner, and our reaction to that sort of behavior shouldn't be like, "NO! BAD"

#92

c_man posted:

again, this shows that you have absolutely no experience with what youre talking about. a major part of preparation for any antifascist rallies, events where arrests are possible, etc, have to deal with when violence does break out in spite of de-escalation attempts. these constitute a broad array of strategies that work to put you and your comrades in a position of the most safety when this does happen, while attempting to prevent it from happening at all, while making sure the most vulnerable can be helped.

I feel like you're trying to sell this to me, like you're reading from a mail order catalog for antifascist strategies. So draw from that broad array and tell me what option you see for the Austin PSL protesters beside steering clear of the RGA or getting into a physical conflict with them? Negotiating with them, finding cooperative actions, firing warning shots when they approach, teaching everyone in PSL tai chi, doxxing the RGA, roasting their sorry sides on tHE r H i z z o n E,... instead of worrying about whether I have ever actually seen riot police up close, tell me what kind of solution you think is viable here? Because the ones that make sense to me seem to be disgusting to you.

#93
if you want a rundown of effective tactics you should go to meetings of your local antifa group, they often train people who are going to be at counterprotests and events with a potential for police involvement in exactly the range of tactics that organizers have at their disposal when confronting hostile groups that arent cartoon antics that you made up after idly pondering for a few seconds. if you're honestly interested i can try and find a pdf or something that could give an overview but from your attitude i expect that you dont actually care and are more interested in making a backwards point about a non-event.

if it sounds like im trying to tell you to get involved with an antifascist group thats good, because i am, and you should. that fact that you dont take that seriously makes me wonder what point you think there is in being a communist.

edit: in fact, i can be even more direct in your question about what i think the austin psl "should do", which is to get involved with their local antifa if they arent already. that was easy.

Edited by c_man ()

#94
Every day that RGA spends bothering lonely PSLites is a precious day they could be hanging pigs heads at DSA meetings.
#95

elias posted:

watch this video:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1092767468529999873/pu/vid/1280x720/TfwljFrGpHsOAna6.mp4

and tell me “stop doing anything” isn’t the optimal choice for everyone involved here



**i move away from the megaphone to burn signs

#96

swampman posted:

Petrol posted:

Anyway, this drama is not something I'm mad about, I'm just totally confused about your position, which seems to be that you don't agree with RGA but you're also glad they exist, and I can't work out why.

i was reacting to the initial reaction in thread of like "ugh these people are so stupid and embarrassing"... their choice of conflict is kind of wacky, but they're also tackling a goal they're capable of achieving and doing it in a serious manner, and our reaction to that sort of behavior shouldn't be like, "NO! BAD"


That's a pretty dumb thing to praise devoid of context. Most neonazis are pathetic wannabes, should we single out the go-getters for praise? I mean I don't agree with lynchings but at least they're proactive.

#97

Petrol posted:

my favorite bit is when "The Militants" melodramatically burn the anti-imperialist propaganda and while its burning the big long winded caption pops up saying hey dont get it twitsed, we actually agree with this stuff but we had to burn it for reasons.



I enjoyed the anime freeze frame of them holding said propaganda before burning it

#98
*record scratch* yup, thats me,
#99
i think maximal de-escalation was already accomplished by the saxophone guy who seemed to play some kind of curb your enthusiasm-like theme the moment their protest got disrupted
#100
hahaha oh man this stuff is so embarrassing. Reminds me of some the ridiculous stuff tiny Irish republican groups get up to, but at least those people actually shoot each other on occasion instead of the relentless cosplay
#101

Petrol posted:

swampman posted:

i was reacting to the initial reaction in thread of like "ugh these people are so stupid and embarrassing"... their choice of conflict is kind of wacky, but they're also tackling a goal they're capable of achieving and doing it in a serious manner, and our reaction to that sort of behavior shouldn't be like, "NO! BAD"

That's a pretty dumb thing to praise devoid of context. Most neonazis are pathetic wannabes, should we single out the go-getters for praise? I mean I don't agree with lynchings but at least they're proactive.

I'm not talking about praise you big ole crack addict. You dont have to either praise or condemn everything you come across. Yes we should be able to identify effective methods even when they're taken up by monsters.

#102
It's all very well to point and laugh at the PSL kidz, but have we all forgotten this group was practically endorsed by forums luminary and erstwhile Austinite, yes, I speak of none other, than Crow, who called it, and I Quote:

Crow posted:

Truly not a ba d group, i think, and even is 'Brezhnevite' (Russian for 'decent org, not bad')


I would love to hear his take on the state of the orgs now, but I have no energy to send up the crow signal, so if any of you can lure him with a convincingly naive post about how the soviet union was state capitalist, I'd be grateful.

#103
they should have gun battles, imo
#104
By this point I consider anyone that doesn't see that RGA are obviously cops to be people that have 1) either never seen a cop in their lives before or 2) are cops themselves. So I hope the people here are just still so fucking stupid that they can't see the demeanor of a cop, the tone and voice of a cop, and the pathetic grasp of the theoretical material of a cop in these less-than-worthless wrecker clowns, and we don't have actual cops here. It should be clear that these wreckers are agent provocateurs through this video alone, and the whole exegesis of their vile history and behavior towards every other group and communist they come across, their status as a cult with a leader obsessed with Jim Jones and Heavens Gate, and their idiotic words and actions shouldn't even have to come in to it. But then again, it's still 2019 and we got people here still thinking that apparently they'll wage PPW in anywhere but their fantasies.

At this point I'm surprised some of you are even Communists. I'm sure if I come back here in a couple years the RGA/Maoism boosters will continue down their petty bourgeois journey to liberalism or worse, as the cultist, delusional nature of their idols will grow undeniable. What else is expected of this ideology?
#105
If you want to learn about the RGA, I'd recommend reading 'A Threat of the First Magnitude' by Aaron Leonard (also 'Heavy Radicals'). Because that's exactly what this is
#106
S-senpai....
#107
Maoism is pretty cool, RGA just need to chill. Maybe wear less angry colours, embrace the power of yoga

Curious about the Jim Jones stuff though.

#108

Crow posted:

By this point I consider anyone that doesn't see that RGA are obviously cops to be people that have 1) either never seen a cop in their lives before or 2) are cops themselves. So I hope the people here are just still so fucking stupid that they can't see the demeanor of a cop, the tone and voice of a cop, and the pathetic grasp of the theoretical material of a cop in these less-than-worthless wrecker clowns, and we don't have actual cops here. It should be clear that these wreckers are agent provocateurs through this video alone, and the whole exegesis of their vile history and behavior towards every other group and communist they come across, their status as a cult with a leader obsessed with Jim Jones and Heavens Gate, and their idiotic words and actions shouldn't even have to come in to it. But then again, it's still 2019 and we got people here still thinking that apparently they'll wage PPW in anywhere but their fantasies.

At this point I'm surprised some of you are even Communists. I'm sure if I come back here in a couple years the RGA/Maoism boosters will continue down their petty bourgeois journey to liberalism or worse, as the cultist, delusional nature of their idols will grow undeniable. What else is expected of this ideology?

This is so hurtful... really, not called for

#109
PSL are FBI while red guards austin are the local PD; not sure if this investigation has crossed state lines so i cant comment further on who is in the right here
#110
psl protest gone WRONG! (gun flashed) (cops called)
#111
are there actually any rga boosters here. besides our unanimous praise for the tactic of scaring the dsa with pigs heads i mean.
#112

Crow posted:

At this point I'm surprised some of you are even Communists. I'm sure if I come back here in a couple years the RGA/Maoism boosters will continue down their petty bourgeois journey to liberalism or worse, as the cultist, delusional nature of their idols will grow undeniable. What else is expected of this ideology?


their idols are the nerds in the masks and bad pants, and ours are supposed to be the nerd with the gun tucked in camo pants, a newsboy cap, and grotesque shirt?

#113
nobody care about any of this stuff mr crow, lol
#114
who on this forum thinks they are going to wage protracted people's war, also. Weird, wild stuff
#115

animedad posted:

their idols are the nerds in the masks and bad pants, and ours are supposed to be the nerd with the gun tucked in camo pants, a newsboy cap, and grotesque shirt?


if the only way you can access political struggle is through idols you are already on the wrong track

#116
Lets all just go to Austin and waste these mother fuckers. It would be a good forums team building exercise and probably resolve a lot of the interpersonal issues that have come up in this thread. Everyone, this would be a good time to dip into your in-case-of-paramilitary-violence safety deposit boxes for the price of a plane ticket.
#117
Everyone loves it when crow makes an appearance, until he tells them how bad their posting is. God speed.
#118

swampman posted:

Lets all just go to Austin and waste these mother fuckers. It would be a good forums team building exercise and probably resolve a lot of the interpersonal issues that have come up in this thread. Everyone, this would be a good time to dip into your in-case-of-paramilitary-violence safety deposit boxes for the price of a plane ticket.


a good time? hell, it's almost sxsw. I don't know what that is exactly but I'm sure it's something.

#119

Petrol posted:

Everyone loves it when crow makes an appearance, until he tells them how bad their posting is. God speed.


Teh problem is i have no idea who Mister Craw is actually talking about there. Do you?

#120

blinkandwheeze posted:

Petrol posted:

Everyone loves it when crow makes an appearance, until he tells them how bad their posting is. God speed.

Teh problem is i have no idea who Mister Craw is actually talking about there. Do you?


RGA are cops, and most of this thread is terrible. Can't say I disagree!