#41
You can take the clown out of the circus, but you can't take the circus out of the clown.
#42
i put down a solid investment in rga and this is what i get. 0 paper sales, they were even burning papers. what am i going to tell my board of directors
#43
I think it's good that RGA split up so these little rascals could be free to do their shenanigans. These kids are cool and the WWP and PSL are out there playing games. I've circled my evidence here, arguably the more important part of the photograph:



This guy Enoch showed up to this Protest, which included that sign, carrying a concealed handgun tucked into his camo pants, and a group of unarmed kids were able to rip up their signs and take their megaphone? Why did he have a gun? Under what circumstances did he see himself using a gun? Was it to prevent the protest being physically disrupted perhaps? Was his cadre aware he was armed? And, what did he say to that cop anyway? The planet is dying, people, I'm not sure I care if an Austin PSL member stands around with a handmade sign naming the four most prominent individuals in the imperialist war machine. I'm not sure I want that person to be encouraged to do that instead of, yknow, anything else.

Let's say Enoch is blameless and never worked with the Police, the protest was effective before the scary teens arrived, and RGA's politics are downright bad. That still doesn't make these kids bad, any more than a guy who publishes security flaws in pacemakers is bad.

Edited by swampman ()

#44
i dont see why rga being huge morons and US chauvanists is anything to be celebrated
#45
I mostly view this as a learning experience for the growing Left in Texas as well as WWP as a whole. Eno was carrying in case of disruption by nazis, of which there are three semi-organized groups in the wider Austin area. It's been a basic safety measure implemented ad-hoc in Texas given cadre of multiple parties have been assaulted or battered by fascists while leaving rallies this past year. He was not prepared to use it against the left, and as a result should not have shown it, but doing so was successful in ending the disruption of a rally against imperialist intervention.

To my knowledge Eno has never been accused of sexual assault, I'm not sure where that came from. RGA is accusing them of supporting someone affiliated with PSL who has, which is why they demanded PSL cadre leave the site.
#46
I dunno what the convo with the pig was about but I've certainly been approached at rallies before. Usually they're trying to get you to talk about something while also compromising you in front of the people. RGA appears to have seized on this in this case and I doubt Eno will engage again based on this experience
#47
speaking of seizing on poor timing, i thought this was funny



but then again it is also pretty entertaining that this event coincides with the temporary government reopening
#48
edit: just do whatever, but stay safe!

Edited by tears ()

#49
If RGA are cops that's even more embarrassing for the Austin WWP/PSL protest. JB is right that this should be viewed as a learning experience for the relevant orgs, and i.m.o., if this provocation makes them mad and they start condemning the RGA thugs, then they deserve more incidents. And they say in the article that Enoch actually filed a police report, if that's true then he really should not be in charge of anything or own a gun
#50

animedad posted:

im glad somebody had the guts to call the fashion police


#51
I highly doubt RGA are cops and WWP doesn't publish hit pieces on other organizations. Also, how would RGA know whether he filed a police report or not in such a way that doesn't provide them any evidence? I'm positive if they had some they'd post it. I suspect they just assumed the cop approaching Eno meant he filed one, but that's just a guess.

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#52
Id like us to consider what Enos options were here, or if it helps, assume this happened to you. You, a candidate with a few months experience in a party, call your first solo lead rally. You have an elder who cannot attend but does help with planning and another candidate agrees to go with. 2 PSL candidates join the rally, and some unaffiliated as well. 4 maoists, some of whom you know have beef with you and others attending, demand you discard your signs and tell two PSL candidates to shove off.

Let's pick it up here.
Do you agree to their demands, give up antiimperialist propaganda and tell PSL to kick rocks? Do you get in an outnumbered brawl in the street? Do you flash your gun in hopes they go away? Do you roll your eyes at how absurdly masculine this is?

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#53

JohnBeige posted:

Do you roll your eyes at how absurdly masculine this is?


And amerikan. Don't forget, absurdly amerikan

#54
It has been pointed out to me that WWP Austin doesn't use Signal, no members were from out of town, video exists of the entire cop interaction from a third party cop watcher and all that occurred was that Eno had to show his CC lisence in order to not pick up a felony.

E: article full of shit on hella fronts

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#55
it was just a social experiment
#56
does the PSL vet and edit your posts
#57
also enoch does have organizing experience outside of the WWP. the whole reason behind targeting this particular protest seemed to be based around some reporting "Incendiary" did about FBI informants within a fake SRA organization he was involved in organizing. https://incendiarynews.com/2018/12/30/follow-up-true-identity-of-central-texas-socialist-rifle-association-fbi-informant-revealed/

edit: confused solidarity with the revolutionaries of the barrio
#58
SRA doesn't organize, they just shoot guns together and occasionally with those who do. Also I ain't in PSL, I thought the forum knew that already
#59

JohnBeige posted:

Id like us to consider what Enos options were here, or if it helps, assume this happened to you. You, a candidate with a few months experience in a party, call your first solo lead rally. You have an elder who cannot attend but does help with planning and another candidate agrees to go with. 2 PSL candidates join the rally, and some unaffiliated as well. 4 maoists, some of whom you know have beef with you and others attending, demand you discard your signs and tell two PSL candidates to shove off.

Let's pick it up here.
Do you agree to their demands, give up antiimperialist propaganda and tell PSL to kick rocks? Do you get in an outnumbered brawl in the street? Do you flash your gun in hopes they go away? Do you roll your eyes at how absurdly masculine this is?

The RGA kids walked up and made a very clear statement as to what they were about to do. The protesters should have immediately left the confrontation that they were not prepared for, and used the rest of the day to discuss how to avoid this happening in the future. You don't have to get into this power struggle with children over a page marked DEMANDS that might as well have said "do our laundry for a year". Don't reward their behavior with confrontation, just walk away, make it a non-event.

People automatically think about problems - this is macho bullshit, we're outnumbered, the demands are unreasonable. We need to think about desired outcomes: we want to have actions uninterrupted by the RGA. What has to happen to reach that goal? There are lots of paths: act where RGA can't confront you, find a way to do cooperative action with the RGA, be physically ready to fend them off, pre-emptively attack the RGA, and so forth. Personally I think whatever gets the least unplanned police attention is the best option.

I'm sorry about the sexual assault remark I made earlier, I edited it out. My brain is turning to mush as i inhale countless metal nanoparticles every day from my ambient environs.

#60

swampman posted:

act where RGA can't confront you, find a way to do cooperative action with the RGA, be physically ready to fend them off, pre-emptively attack the RGA


this is totally absurd, the RGA arent interested in cooperation and actively seek out other groups to disrupt. the others are an escalation of physical violence which are dramatically less desirable than the current outcome.

#61

JohnBeige posted:

Id like us to consider what Enos options were here, or if it helps, assume this happened to you. You, a candidate with a few months experience in a party, call your first solo lead rally. You have an elder who cannot attend but does help with planning and another candidate agrees to go with. 2 PSL candidates join the rally, and some unaffiliated as well. 4 maoists, some of whom you know have beef with you and others attending, demand you discard your signs and tell two PSL candidates to shove off.

Let's pick it up here.
Do you agree to their demands, give up antiimperialist propaganda and tell PSL to kick rocks? Do you get in an outnumbered brawl in the street? Do you flash your gun in hopes they go away? Do you roll your eyes at how absurdly masculine this is?


could we use a time machine to go back and ask what revolutionary purpose would be served by having 3 kids stand near a highway intersection in texas with a hand drawn comic sans sign saying trump is a capitalist?

#62

MarxUltor posted:

a hand drawn comic sans sign saying trump is a capitalist


a gangster for capitalism. get it right

#63

MarxUltor posted:

could we use a time machine to go back and ask what revolutionary purpose would be served by having 3 kids stand near a highway intersection in texas with a hand drawn comic sans sign saying trump is a capitalist?



that's like all wwp anti-imperialist protests tho

#64

c_man posted:

swampman posted:

act where RGA can't confront you, find a way to do cooperative action with the RGA, be physically ready to fend them off, pre-emptively attack the RGA

this is totally absurd, the RGA arent interested in cooperation and actively seek out other groups to disrupt. the others are an escalation of physical violence which are dramatically less desirable than the current outcome.


Obviously I have no idea what the optimal solution is for Austin communist orgs, but you're doing exactly what I advise against: focusing on problems instead of outcomes. Given that this is reality in Austin, what do you want to happen from here?

#65
I mean they're going to keep doing actions and they're likely going to continue going armed. They tried ignoring the problem, their shit got torn up. Of the list of suggestions you posted, the one reasonable suggestion (because brawling in the street isn't) seems to be to hold events in places they don't exist, which seems to say 'dont hold any events in austin'. How would you suggest they operate under this constraint?

E: this is not a gotcha and I'm not trying to be hostile, this is a genuine question

Edited by JohnBeige ()

#66
swampman has already proposed his solutions, which are either "violent conflict" or "stop doing actions"
#67
watch this video:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1092767468529999873/pu/vid/1280x720/TfwljFrGpHsOAna6.mp4

and tell me “stop doing anything” isn’t the optimal choice for everyone involved here
#68

c_man posted:

swampman has already proposed his solutions, which are either "violent conflict" or "stop doing actions"

What they are doing right now - holding protests where the RGA is guaranteed to turn up, and doing them with an inadequate number of 1 handgun - is the recipe for both violent conflict and a hard stop to anyone's ability to have left actions in Austin. If they want to keep doing protests, don't do them in places where the RGA can roll up safely - crowded places, private property, city property, universities, or just places where you can see the kids approaching and either leave quickly or be prepared to ward them off. But you also have to be realistic, if the WWP/PSL can't handle these disruptions, then yes they have to stop doing these kinds of actions and focus on something else that the RGA can't touch. Flyering, doing cooperative meetings with other groups who won't be intimidated, neighborhood-oriented meetings that would make the RGA look pathetic for disrupting...

#69
maybe they should have some comradely discussions in good faith idk
#70

elias posted:

watch this video:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1092767468529999873/pu/vid/1280x720/TfwljFrGpHsOAna6.mp4

and tell me “stop doing anything” isn’t the optimal choice for everyone involved here


will the poster playing the saxaphone please make yourself known in this thread

#71

swampman posted:

c_man posted:

swampman has already proposed his solutions, which are either "violent conflict" or "stop doing actions"

What they are doing right now - holding protests where the RGA is guaranteed to turn up, and doing them with an inadequate number of 1 handgun - is the recipe for both violent conflict and a hard stop to anyone's ability to have left actions in Austin. If they want to keep doing protests, don't do them in places where the RGA can roll up safely - crowded places, private property, city property, universities, or just places where you can see the kids approaching and either leave quickly or be prepared to ward them off. But you also have to be realistic, if the WWP/PSL can't handle these disruptions, then yes they have to stop doing these kinds of actions and focus on something else that the RGA can't touch. Flyering, doing cooperative meetings with other groups who won't be intimidated, neighborhood-oriented meetings that would make the RGA look pathetic for disrupting...


The obvious answer is to train in de-escalation like you would for any sort of conflict with fascists. This sounds the random spitballing from someone whos never actually participated in an action with the potential for escalation of violence, which maybe the wwp people there arent either. Theres a pretty robust and well understood array of tactics for defusing situations that can turn violent, and defending people if it does. In any case, whats the point of theorycrafting about the specific tactics that some group you have no affiliation with or interest in uses or doesnt use, especially if you have no experience in those situations? Your whole spiel here seems like armchair quarterbacking for a sport youve never seen before.

#72
let me talk to them
#73
my favorite bit is when "The Militants" melodramatically burn the anti-imperialist propaganda and while its burning the big long winded caption pops up saying hey dont get it twitsed, we actually agree with this stuff but we had to burn it for reasons.
#74
i'm kinda shocked by how, even though this all sounded insanely stupid and dorky before i saw the video, every part of it looked even worse when captured on film.
#75

elias posted:

watch this video:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1092767468529999873/pu/vid/1280x720/TfwljFrGpHsOAna6.mp4

and tell me “stop doing anything” isn’t the optimal choice for everyone involved here



saddened to learn by watching the video that this part of the article

https://incendiarynews.com/2019/02/04/workers-world-party-confronted-in-southeast-austin/ posted:

“How exactly would you do that?” Enoch said. “Eat my ass, that’s my demand.”

is false, as i found it particularly funny

#76
~ no investigation ~

Edited by toyotathon ()

#77

swampman posted:

The protesters should have immediately left the confrontation that they were not prepared for, and used the rest of the day to discuss how to avoid this happening in the future. ... Don't reward their behavior with confrontation, just walk away, make it a non-event.



"the enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy camps, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue." i read that somewhere.

something tells me a maoist group would never see it coming...

#78

c_man posted:

The obvious answer is to train in de-escalation

How is this not "random spitballing"? Seems like everywhere I turn someone is offering a class in "de-escalation" and most of it looks like this: https://vividlearningsystems.com/safety-toolbox/conflict-de-escalation-techniques

De-escalation is useful when you're having a protest and some random person walks up hoping to get a rise out of you. It's useful when comrades haven't been getting enough sleep and they're bickering about personal conflicts. When an organized group walks up ready and able to kick your ass, proper de-escalation consists of retreating.

My point isn't to hammer out some kind of proscription for what should have been done or what should be done by Austin leftists, they can figure that out. I'm saying that this incident was not bad, because 1. it offers clear direction to the affected groups and 2. it is objectively a good thing that several young people in Austin are calling themselves Maoists and behaving like a paramilitary even if they release hilarious exaggerated propaganda about barely-comprehensible scraps with other Amerikan left orgs.

Edited by swampman ()

#79

swampman posted:

it is objectively a good thing that several young people in Austin are calling themselves Maoists and behaving like a paramilitary even if they release hilarious exaggerated propaganda about barely-comprehensible scraps with other Amerikan left orgs


Is it? You're basically saying the only really important thing about being a Maoist is adopting the label.

#80

swampman posted:

c_man posted:

The obvious answer is to train in de-escalation

How is this not "random spitballing"? Seems like everywhere I turn someone is offering a class in "de-escalation" and most of it looks like this: https://vividlearningsystems.com/safety-toolbox/conflict-de-escalation-techniques

De-escalation is useful when you're having a protest and some random person walks up hoping to get a rise out of you. It's useful when comrades haven't been getting enough sleep and they're bickering about personal conflicts. When an organized group walks up ready and able to kick your ass, proper de-escalation consists of retreating.

My point isn't to hammer out some kind of proscription for what should have been done or what should be done by Austin leftists, they can figure that out. I'm saying that this incident was not bad, because 1. it offers clear direction to the affected groups and 2. it is objectively a good thing that several young people in Austin are calling themselves Maoists and behaving like a paramilitary even if they release hilarious exaggerated propaganda about barely-comprehensible scraps with other Amerikan left orgs.


this is totally wrong. de-escalation is an important part of any action that has the potential for violence, including confrontation with fascists or police. similar tactics have a long history of success in protecting people at actions. the point of an action is basically never to engage in a violent confrontation, unless you're a fascist. fantasizing that youre a guerilla when thats not the reality of the situation is a reactionary fantasy.

i want to address this specifically:

When an organized group walks up ready and able to kick your ass, proper de-escalation consists of retreating.


this is total garbage. every single time the police show up at a strike, a blm action, or anything their goal is to provoke a violent response and make an arrest. there are a lot of different and valuable strategies for dealing with this that can and have saved many people from arrest and further police violence. "retreating" in these situations always mean abandoning some of your comrades to being beaten bloody and then arrested. you really have no place at any sort of action if you arent prepared to work in these kinds of ways and you're going to be a liability to vulnerable people if you ever go to one.

im honestly sort of shocked that so few people seem to have even heard of any sort of ad hoc training by other organizers in de-arresting people, not provoking/otherwise dealing with counter-protesters, avoiding kettling, etc

Edited by c_man ()