#41
mmm, love futurological congress. But that other one kinda reads like lf
#42
re: dialectical materialism, dunno but i like knowing what the class enemy gets up to. also death to amerika
#43
was reading the transcripts of the jonestown "death tape", recorded as they were being killed and saw this:

Unidentified Woman: At one time I felt just like Christine felt. But after today I don’t feel anything because the biggest majority of the people that left here were white and I know it really hurt my heart because …

Jones: Broke your heart, didn’t it?

Unidentified Woman: It broke my heart to think that all of these years that the white people have been with us and they’re not a part of us. So we might as well end it now because I don’t see …



uh huh

#44
I don't get it
#45

Belphegor posted:

I don't get it


the white people in question were feds who knew the camp was about to be destroyed

#46
are you planning to take LSD as part of this research? also, Hello Again
#47

jools posted:

are you planning to take LSD as part of this research? also, Hello Again



what's up man? good to have you back

#48

jools posted:

are you planning to take LSD


never heard of it

#49
lox, sauerkraut and dill. best bagel since the fall of the Temple :9
#50

One, two, CIA's coming for you.

Three, four, Better lock your door.

Five, six, grab a crucifix.

Seven, eight, Gonna stay up late.

Nine, ten, Never sleep again....
#51
the unabomber was in some unethical torture experiment as a graduate student, conducted by a guy with intelligence connections (OSS)... nothing available about whether MKUltra was directly connected but it seems like a fair assertion
#52
not worth getting too hung up on whether this or that intelligence program came under a particular codename umbrella, the main thing is knowing who was involved.
#53

AZ_IZ_OT posted:

the unabomber was in some unethical torture experiment as a graduate student, conducted by a guy with intelligence connections (OSS)... nothing available about whether MKUltra was directly connected but it seems like a fair assertion


that guy was also involved with timothy learys lsd experiments i think

#54

AZ_IZ_OT posted:

the unabomber was in some unethical torture experiment as a graduate student, conducted by a guy with intelligence connections (OSS)... nothing available about whether MKUltra was directly connected but it seems like a fair assertion



i prefer to imagine that godel's incompleteness theorem + your favorite forest clearing getting roaded is enough to turn someone into a totally ineffectual terrorist saint/demon

#55
glad to hear that everyone is cia, just to update, timothy leary was cia
#56
also i dont know how this passed my by but peter dale scott was one of the original test subjects for donald hebbs cia funded extreme sensory deprivation experiements

angel on my shoulder: maybe thats why he became so interested in the deep state
devil on my shoulder: hes a brainwashed manchurian candiate, burn all your copies of his books, you have no hope to survive make your time
#57

tears posted:

also i dont know how this passed my by but peter dale scott was one of the original test subjects for donald hebbs cia funded extreme sensory deprivation experiements

angel on my shoulder: maybe thats why he became so interested in the deep state
devil on my shoulder: hes a brainwashed manchurian candiate, burn all your copies of his books, you have no hope to survive make your time


#58
so, i've got something i'd like to clear up. how come mkultra is more interesting than, for example, direct evidence of the continuation of US concentration camps in south vietnam? what is it mkultra is alleged to have proven/provided for the us government? i get that torturing however many hundreds or thousands for the sake of some possibly spurious research is bad, but that strikes me as weighing pretty lightly against millions of vietnamese locked up in camps and starved...
#59
how come anything is more interesting than anything else for any particular person
#60
because i'm unclear what the long term consequences of the mkultra program have been, as opposed to gladio or drug trafficking or anything else parapolitical, basically, which is to me the interest of this kind of history
#61
it really depends how conspiracy minded you are, i like all those things too, as you'll have seen from my drug thread, but i also like to drop off the deep end every once in a while like looking to see what evidence there is that the deep state deliberatly spread lsd and formulated "60s counterculture" on the home front while pursuing genocide abroad; if the cia could deliberatly flood black communities with crack during the 80s, i dont see any reason why they wouldnt have tried other things with other drugs earlier, but then i like conspiracy theories.
#62
http://www.suzannetreister.net/HEXEN2/HEXEN_2.html

#63

jools posted:

so, i've got something i'd like to clear up. how come mkultra is more interesting than, for example, direct evidence of the continuation of US concentration camps in south vietnam? what is it mkultra is alleged to have proven/provided for the us government? i get that torturing however many hundreds or thousands for the sake of some possibly spurious research is bad, but that strikes me as weighing pretty lightly against millions of vietnamese locked up in camps and starved...

i've been reading "kill everything that moves" and would appreciate whatever else anyone can post about the new life hamlets

#64

xipe posted:

http://www.suzannetreister.net/HEXEN2/HEXEN_2.html




im in love now

#65

xipe posted:

http://www.suzannetreister.net/HEXEN2/HEXEN_2.html



This is correct, yes.

#66

swampman posted:

i've been reading "kill everything that moves" and would appreciate whatever else anyone can post about the new life hamlets



the "new life hamlets" were different to the "strategic hamlets" afaik. new life hamlets were more like areas that the americans mostly had under control and were trying to develop in a neo-colonial fashion rather than straight up camps.

http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_F320DA0F630243C3A28DD10FCCD8ADB4

here is some file footage with a new life hamlet in 1967. there's questions of obfuscation and so on - obviously they're not going to show anything negative about these areas in their own propaganda.

Edited by Chthonic_Goat_666 ()

#67
here is an interview with a Vietnamese man who describes the rounding up of peasants into Strategic Hamlets in late 1965:

By 1965 – on November 10, 1965 – the puppet used tanks and drove the population of the twelve villages into this strategic hamlet in order to control them. The regime was afraid that if they allowed the people to remain in their own villages then they would have contacts with the revolution, so they forced everybody into this strategic hamlet.



http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_3117023EF5BF4243BC8DE69D94DB9AA9

so this is well after the "official end" in 1964 according to the Wikipedia source.

#68
as an aside, during my extremely cursory research i came across a book titled "Strategic hamlets in America; an approach to the problems of the urban and rural poor" by David Pender in 1969. wtf? i need to read this book...

Edited by Chthonic_Goat_666 ()

#69

Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

as an aside, during my extremely cursory research i came across a book titled "Strategic hamlets in America; an approach to the problems of the urban and rural poor" by David Pender in 1969. wtf? i need to read this book...


damn that sounds interesting. looks like it's at monash if you have access somehow? http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/25208085 otherwise there's literally one copy on abebooks and with postage Down Undah it's getting close to 50 dollarydoos https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=18158820911

#70

AZ_IZ_OT posted:

the unabomber was in some unethical torture experiment as a graduate student, conducted by a guy with intelligence connections (OSS)... nothing available about whether MKUltra was directly connected but it seems like a fair assertion


haha they did a three-year torture & humiliation study on him and...

"We have a very strong policy of maintaining the confidentiality of people who participate in studies archived here," Murray Center Director Annemette Sorensen said. "This particular file has been permanently removed, with the reason being that we cannot protect its confidentiality anymore."

"It would undermine everything we try to do here, and it would really mean that we would begin to lose control over those important principles," she said.


removed his file from the study because of "ethics"

#71
confidentiality is important. can't release the file..... to the subject's own defense team??

Kaczynski told me that the Henry A. Murray Research Center of the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study, although it released some raw data about him to his attorneys, had refused to share information about the Murray team’s analysis of that data. Kaczynski hinted darkly that the Murray Center seemed to feel it had something to hide. One of his defense investigators, he said, reported that the center had told participating psychologists not to talk with his defense team.

#72

ilmdge posted:

confidentiality is important. can't release the file..... to the subject's own defense team??


Kaczynski told me that the Henry A. Murray Research Center of the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study, although it released some raw data about him to his attorneys, had refused to share information about the Murray team’s analysis of that data. Kaczynski hinted darkly that the Murray Center seemed to feel it had something to hide. One of his defense investigators, he said, reported that the center had told participating psychologists not to talk with his defense team.


its cool how all the legal people on both sides were so freaked out by his ideas that they wanted to use an insanity defence and make him out to be crazy, and when he tried to represent himself the judge said no even after a psychologist said he wasn't insane

#73

Petrol posted:

Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

as an aside, during my extremely cursory research i came across a book titled "Strategic hamlets in America; an approach to the problems of the urban and rural poor" by David Pender in 1969. wtf? i need to read this book...

damn that sounds interesting. looks like it's at monash if you have access somehow? http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/25208085 otherwise there's literally one copy on abebooks and with postage Down Undah it's getting close to 50 dollarydoos https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=18158820911

i snapped it up, to buttress my status as a valued poster

#74
nice. i look forward to its imminent appearance in the secret pdf subforum
#75
The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test tells more about the government LSD dealt through Kesey, who thought he was pretty clever for helping to introduce bohemian culture to the drug (the author of that book seems to agree, because he's kind of stupid). Kesey would go on to write a novel featuring a scab hero and its mixed reception led to him trundling around in that bus dispensing acid across the country
#76

Petrol posted:

Chthonic_Goat_666 posted:

as an aside, during my extremely cursory research i came across a book titled "Strategic hamlets in America; an approach to the problems of the urban and rural poor" by David Pender in 1969. wtf? i need to read this book...

damn that sounds interesting. looks like it's at monash if you have access somehow? http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/25208085 otherwise there's literally one copy on abebooks and with postage Down Undah it's getting close to 50 dollarydoos https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=18158820911



i can get to monash, it says "open to the public" but it also doesn't seem to specify which of their campuses its at. im gonna go into one today and try to find it. lets see if this wild goose chase turns anything up

#77
there's a school library relatively close to me with a copy and i can get access to it in about a week, if nothing else turns up, though if swampman actually bought the copy then we'll be good

in general tho, if anyone is looking for weird books, i have access to a ton of shit through universities in london, the english stole all the books from everyone, so just let me know. always fun to find weird obscure shit
#78
i had to jump through some hoops but hopefully ill get it in a few days
#79
as to its contents im gonna guess its some hapless economist who has swallowed american propaganda about what they were doing in the hamlets uncritically and is basically just asking for increased development in some poor areas. rather than some truly evil shit. but lets hope ive hit some kind of jackpot. the use of the term 'strategic hamlets' is bizarre given that this came out 1969, as even the american establishment was talking about the failure of the program by 1965ish.
#80
what it seems like is the hamlet program was basically just not called its own program anymore, but was lumped in with "pacification" and CORDS and brought more directly under amerikan control and talked about less. what i can gather abt the book so far is Pender wants to build something called "Implanted Communities" which are set away from the cities and have a lot of cool industrial and agricultural activities for the ppl