Superabound posted:AmericanNazbro posted:like, ok, you support the notion of perfecting human beings at the genetic level, but how does one formulate a political ideology based upon that principle? in practice, and not within a hypothetical star trek ideal, which, doesn't even seem plausible given unlimited technology because "perfection" is subjective
Eugenics isnt about creating "perfect" beings, its about weeding out obvious flaws and inherited diseases in order to make the species itself healthier and more genetically robust overall
removing flaws is what "perfecting" means...
the fact that "perfection" is an unobtainable—the objet petit a—doesn't preclude from it being the impetus for praxis. which is problematic because "perfection" is a subjective ideal and under capitalism that means the implementation of eugenics will occur within the framework of liberal idealistic pathos, attempts at removing sickle cell anemia from africans will occur concomitant experiments to induce docility, effectively lobotomies at the hereditary level
1. Petro Poroshenko’s bloc (Klychko) – 29.9%
2. Fatherland (Tymoshenko) – 8.7%
3. Radical party (Liashko) – 7.6%
4. Civic position (Hrytsenko) – 7.3%
5. People’s front (Jatseniuk) – 7.0%
The other parties, including the ex-party-of-regions organizations (the Opposition bloc and Strong Ukraine) as well as Svoboda and Right Sector, are way below the 5% barrier for entry into parliament.
55% to 72% of Ukrainians are going to vote.
http://www.gfk.ua/ua/news-and-events/press-room/press-releases/pages/20141010-press-release.aspx
Tokyo_Sexwale posted:Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
anti-american imperialism and what happened to yugoslavia is the only real argument , also cia fascist thugs trying to hijack the country, but i think Ukraine revolution is unique in that it rejects russian style of reactionary capitalist rule
Tokyo_Sexwale posted:Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
because you touch yourself at night
Tokyo_Sexwale posted:Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
I don't understand this post at all but here you go http://www.cis-emo.net/sites/default/files/imagesimce/neonazis_euromaidan_-_2nd_edition.pdf
Tokyo_Sexwale posted:Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
..so ukrainians are rejecting fascism... because the two top parties polling right now are either extremely right-wing or centre-right at best? okay anime avatar.
Edited by aerdil ()
NoFreeWill posted:Crow posted:.custom252131{}NoFreeWill posted:it's great that you guys think fascism is astro-turfed by the bourgeois when actually it's an expression of the proletariat's real concerns and feelings.
oh right I said i was going to probate fascists here
Telling people that you know better than them their true interests never works. The People love fascism, sorry.
*Skrrrt*
What is this shit?
Goodbye
aerdil posted:Tokyo_Sexwale posted:Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
..so ukrainians are rejecting fascism... because the two top parties polling right now are either extremely right-wing or centre-right at best? okay anime avatar.
russia is picking apart eastern europe, neofascists parties such as Fidesz in hungary and front national in france openly support putin and his politics - the end of formal freedoms - when ukrainians rejected russia they also rejected reactionary capitalism
the current hegemonic american / EU order .... mainstream liberalism ... will only become reactionary in the face of class struggle and a powerful revolutionary movement, but we're pretty much tailing behind the russian states' reactionary ideology by suggesting all euromaidan ukranians are american sponsored fascists and a status quo on kiev would resolve the situation
while it is technically probably almost certainly true that certain members of ISIS have at some point been involved in acquiring Western wives for certain other members of ISIS it may be a bit of an overreach to say that they are setting up a white slavery ring led by Bela Lugosi in a preachers hat, although technically correct. this is known as internaitonalism
it's clear this is good for the Left. this is from Foreign Policy and they are absolutely in love with this guy, because he wants Ukraine to have nuclear warheads pointed at Moscow.
fleights posted:Fascists in Ukraine are pro-European, though only because of the anti-Russian nature of Ukrainian nationalist sediment. No on is arguing for a support of European interests, merely the absolute necessity of recognizing the reactionary nature of the Russian state and it's pawns in Europe. The difference between the two imperialist blocs (Western Europe and the U.S., Russia, China Iran and Syria) is that the possibility of class consciousness is dwarfed by the sheer ideological power of the latter (almost comparable to 20th century Fascism) who unlike the current legitimate global capitalist order (I.e. U.S. hegemony) have offered a false solution to existing conditions, an alternative to American Imperialism and European liberal technocracy, in all it's 'weakness'. They posit themselves as opponents of the existing order of things while at the same time, in their very opposition sustain the global imperialist order.
so what youre advocating here is that american lead fascist proxy groups should be employed to crush all opposition to american imperialism and then usher in global neoliberalism? this is a good good ideology m8, been reading graeber lately i see
fleights posted:make no apologies when I say proletarian consciousness is infinitely more likely here than in Russia, or the Middle East where the dichotomy is solely on national, religious or ethnic grounds. And that's the danger in Europe, with Front National, the Golden Dawn, Orban in Hungary and so on - The so-called defenders of western civilization and European culture are in effect destroying Europe by trivializing it into another nation-state where issues of class, among other social issues are non-existent and all dichtomony resides with those who support the nation, the affirmative ideology, the master and the cowardly political correct liberals who are undermining the national strength, the slave, the dissenting ideology that serves only to sustain the former. This is the logic of such vulgar, philistine bourgeois politics. This is the barbarism luxemburg had spoken of, and the Communist project in it's current state does not stand a chance. The choice becomes clear, then: A new universal Communist movement that is capable of destroying the ying-yang of Bourgeois Liberalism and Fascism, trivializing it, or this new barbaric capitalism.
you are conflating revolutionary potential of the actualization of the proletariat owning the means of production, with radical but toothless rhetoric. russel brand is not a revolutionary, owen jones is not a revolutionary, noam chomsky is not a revolutionary.
Tokyo_Sexwale posted:Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
http://german-foreign-policy.com/de/fulltext/58969 this article isnt translated into english yet but it suggests that partys are integrating known fascists or militia leaders into party structures to promote the "patriotic vote". Most of the examples listed are for marginal partys like Jatseniuk's integrating people like Andrij Parubij, founder of the "social-nationalist party of the ukraine", or holocaust deniers and fans of the OUN like historian Wolodymyr Wjatrowytsch.
It doesn't have any clear data on the amount of known fascists being integrated into the two biggest partys but a projected vote of what, 20-30% total for partys employing fascists, holocaust deniers and far right militia leaders suggests everything BUT "ukraine rejecting fascism"
this has been a trend for a while now (magazines like Der Spiegel have been saying "right-wing-extremists, conspiracy theorists, anti-zionists and anti-americanists" in one breath now, there was a recent example of it this week and I dont remember people being so blatant about it a few years ago [this is also in the wake of public witch hunts against anti-zionists, like members of the "leftist party" Die Linke being denounced as anti-semites from within the party cause they attend pro-palestine rallys, or the more recent example of the one politician with something of a backbone {she didnt stand up during a visit by simon peres, to her credit} coming under public scrutiny as she denounced the american airstrikes ""against ISIS"", or the Günter Grass fiasco from a while back and so on) and the putin fifth columnist thing in particular hasn't been helped by ex-chancelor Schröder coming under Putin's tutelage
hell yeah I love to derail and ramble on fellas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
prohairesis posted:sahra wagenknecht seems really kool
she did to me too. Then she publically stated her idea of economic policy would be the same as former chancellor Ludwig Erhard's, and lost all credibility forever and ever and I hate her now. I hate her!!!
Ronnski posted:also, since its relevant to the topic at hand, theres a very interesting trend in german media right now: The german state funded news network has been running falsified information about the ukraine conflict for a while now, using fraudulent images and outright lies to drum up support against Russia, even showing ukrainian militias with SS insignia helmets while calling them "freedom fighters". This has prompted a huge backlash from the public which prompted the state television to admit to "small mistakes" while simultaneously calling the majority of critics "conspiracy theorists" and "putin lobbyists", while several newspaper and media outlets in germany have come out in support for state news against "putin's fifth columnists"
this has been a trend for a while now (magazines like Der Spiegel have been saying "right-wing-extremists, conspiracy theorists, anti-zionists and anti-americanists" in one breath now, there was a recent example of it this week and I dont remember people being so blatant about it a few years ago [this is also in the wake of public witch hunts against anti-zionists, like members of the "leftist party" Die Linke being denounced as anti-semites from within the party cause they attend pro-palestine rallys, or the more recent example of the one politician with something of a backbone {she didnt stand up during a visit by simon peres, to her credit} coming under public scrutiny as she denounced the american airstrikes ""against ISIS"", or the Günter Grass fiasco from a while back and so on) and the putin fifth columnist thing in particular hasn't been helped by ex-chancelor Schröder coming under Putin's tutelage
hell yeah I love to derail and ramble on fellas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AmericanNazbro posted:fleights posted:Fascists in Ukraine are pro-European, though only because of the anti-Russian nature of Ukrainian nationalist sediment. No on is arguing for a support of European interests, merely the absolute necessity of recognizing the reactionary nature of the Russian state and it's pawns in Europe. The difference between the two imperialist blocs (Western Europe and the U.S., Russia, China Iran and Syria) is that the possibility of class consciousness is dwarfed by the sheer ideological power of the latter (almost comparable to 20th century Fascism) who unlike the current legitimate global capitalist order (I.e. U.S. hegemony) have offered a false solution to existing conditions, an alternative to American Imperialism and European liberal technocracy, in all it's 'weakness'. They posit themselves as opponents of the existing order of things while at the same time, in their very opposition sustain the global imperialist order.
so what youre advocating here is that american lead fascist proxy groups should be employed to crush all opposition to american imperialism and then usher in global neoliberalism? this is a good good ideology m8, been reading graeber lately i see
thats exactly what i am not saying
AmericanNazbro posted:fleights posted:make no apologies when I say proletarian consciousness is infinitely more likely here than in Russia, or the Middle East where the dichotomy is solely on national, religious or ethnic grounds. And that's the danger in Europe, with Front National, the Golden Dawn, Orban in Hungary and so on - The so-called defenders of western civilization and European culture are in effect destroying Europe by trivializing it into another nation-state where issues of class, among other social issues are non-existent and all dichtomony resides with those who support the nation, the affirmative ideology, the master and the cowardly political correct liberals who are undermining the national strength, the slave, the dissenting ideology that serves only to sustain the former. This is the logic of such vulgar, philistine bourgeois politics. This is the barbarism luxemburg had spoken of, and the Communist project in it's current state does not stand a chance. The choice becomes clear, then: A new universal Communist movement that is capable of destroying the ying-yang of Bourgeois Liberalism and Fascism, trivializing it, or this new barbaric capitalism.
you are conflating revolutionary potential of the actualization of the proletariat owning the means of production, with radical but toothless rhetoric. russel brand is not a revolutionary, owen jones is not a revolutionary, noam chomsky is not a revolutionary.
agreed about those guys not being revolutionary ...... yet
swampman posted:therefore anyone who believes eugenics are possible, is ignorant and foolish
looks like somebody owes all those Nazi scientists a pretty big apology!
AmericanNazbro posted:removing flaws is what "perfecting" means...
the fact that "perfection" is an unobtainable—the objet petit a—doesn't preclude from it being the impetus for praxis. which is problematic because "perfection" is a subjective ideal and under capitalism that means the implementation of eugenics will occur within the framework of liberal idealistic pathos, attempts at removing sickle cell anemia from africans will occur concomitant experiments to induce docility, effectively lobotomies at the hereditary level
that is very reductionist and frankly, wildly inaccurate. Perfection is not simply about the eradication of flaws. Flaws are infirming, destructive, negative deviations from the baseline. The eradication of flaws results in nothing more than Adequacy and Fitness. There are many Adequate or Fit options within a non- or minimally-flawed system. Pefection requires taking what is Adequate and propelling it, through a hierarchical, limiting process of elimination to a singular Omega Point. Perfection requires the eradication of both flaws AND the entire continuum of non-flawed but sub-optimal diversity.
For example, the forced sterilization of all European Jews would of course remove a glaring and infinitely destructive set of both genetic and memetic flaws from both the Human pool and global society. But would the world be "Perfect" afterwards? Of course not. We would still have many other issues to contend with, such as Capitalism*, fiat money, and the other lasting, destructive results of the Jewish menace. But would we be, objectively, better off as a species? Absolutely.
*considered by many to be "flawed", but is, in fact, working exactly as designed and intended
fleights posted:AmericanNazbro posted:fleights posted:Fascists in Ukraine are pro-European, though only because of the anti-Russian nature of Ukrainian nationalist sediment. No on is arguing for a support of European interests, merely the absolute necessity of recognizing the reactionary nature of the Russian state and it's pawns in Europe. The difference between the two imperialist blocs (Western Europe and the U.S., Russia, China Iran and Syria) is that the possibility of class consciousness is dwarfed by the sheer ideological power of the latter (almost comparable to 20th century Fascism) who unlike the current legitimate global capitalist order (I.e. U.S. hegemony) have offered a false solution to existing conditions, an alternative to American Imperialism and European liberal technocracy, in all it's 'weakness'. They posit themselves as opponents of the existing order of things while at the same time, in their very opposition sustain the global imperialist order.
so what youre advocating here is that american lead fascist proxy groups should be employed to crush all opposition to american imperialism and then usher in global neoliberalism? this is a good good ideology m8, been reading graeber lately i see
thats exactly what i am not saying
i dont know what point is being made then tbh.
i havent seen any leftists, tankies or whatever, that have argued putin is the second coming of lenin. people aren't venerating putin by wishing for western hegemony to falter and for the world to become more multipolar, which would allow a bit more breathing room for revolutions to occur without immediately getting strangled by the sheer magnitude of the west's military. i think there is a general understanding that communism isn't going to build itself simply through accelerationism
conec posted:
they`re all same color. lazy artist
wow. muhammad ali, a crying guy in a beret, that guy who was my boss once, beethoven or something... they're all here. what a great art
Ronnski posted:Tokyo_Sexwale posted:
Turns out Ukrainians are rejecting fascism, while basically every extreme right wing organization in Europe is staunchly on Putin's side. I'm expecting some explanations from posters here who support Putin about why they're joining ranks with the fascists
http://german-foreign-policy.com/de/fulltext/58969 this article isnt translated into english yet but it suggests that partys are integrating known fascists or militia leaders into party structures to promote the "patriotic vote". Most of the examples listed are for marginal partys like Jatseniuk's integrating people like Andrij Parubij, founder of the "social-nationalist party of the ukraine", or holocaust deniers and fans of the OUN like historian Wolodymyr Wjatrowytsch.
It doesn't have any clear data on the amount of known fascists being integrated into the two biggest partys but a projected vote of what, 20-30% total for partys employing fascists, holocaust deniers and far right militia leaders suggests everything BUT "ukraine rejecting fascism"
Ronnski posted:also, since its relevant to the topic at hand, theres a very interesting trend in german media right now: The german state funded news network has been running falsified information about the ukraine conflict for a while now, using fraudulent images and outright lies to drum up support against Russia, even showing ukrainian militias with SS insignia helmets while calling them "freedom fighters". This has prompted a huge backlash from the public which prompted the state television to admit to "small mistakes" while simultaneously calling the majority of critics "conspiracy theorists" and "putin lobbyists", while several newspaper and media outlets in germany have come out in support for state news against "putin's fifth columnists"
this has been a trend for a while now (magazines like Der Spiegel have been saying "right-wing-extremists, conspiracy theorists, anti-zionists and anti-americanists" in one breath now, there was a recent example of it this week and I dont remember people being so blatant about it a few years ago [this is also in the wake of public witch hunts against anti-zionists, like members of the "leftist party" Die Linke being denounced as anti-semites from within the party cause they attend pro-palestine rallys, or the more recent example of the one politician with something of a backbone {she didnt stand up during a visit by simon peres, to her credit} coming under public scrutiny as she denounced the american airstrikes ""against ISIS"", or the Günter Grass fiasco from a while back and so on) and the putin fifth columnist thing in particular hasn't been helped by ex-chancelor Schröder coming under Putin's tutelage
hell yeah I love to derail and ramble on fellas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for providing some non tokyo sexwale real info ronnie
AynRandAnCap posted:imagine some government bureaucrat saying you're too dumb or too weak to have sex. would you support that?
depends. what does she look like and how long have we been dating