xipe posted:

https://youtu.be/zinPbUZUHDEThis talk at the US war college gives some of the reasons why the Nazi point of view of WW2 was so readily accepted by the American military

Less than four minutes in, House's stated reason for taking a lot of their information from the Nazis: "they were really friendly to us while the Soviets were very suspicious of us" and immediately follows that by saying that the hired née captured Nazis coordinated among themselves and gave us three false reasons for why they lost the war, and these fake alibis were not lies, because the Nazis were not deliberately lying to us. This kind of reasoning is fucking gross, cool lecture tho

Edited by swampman (Nov. 15, 2017 22:45:00)

xipe posted:

https://lorenzoae.wordpress.com/2017/10/11/on-russia-todays-liberals/amp/

i decided to dive deeper into this after reading a few sections initially and noticed:

“Simultaneously with Hearst’s 1935 famine-genocide campaign,” continues Tottle, “the Nazi press in Germany and similar papers elsewhere in Europe issued materials on the same theme. The Nazis had been flogging the issue as early as 1933, complete with fraudulently mis-dated photos.” The official Nazi party publication Völkischer Beobachter repeated and spread the stories of the Hearst presses. A 1935 book published in Germany was translated to English as Human Life in Russia the next year, and Tottle observes that Human Life in Russia set the tone for many publications pushing the genocide myth: “Documentation is minimal: footnotes are remarkably scarce and no bibliography is included.” The author, Ewald Ammende, attested to the authenticity of the photographs within, declaring that they are the work of “an Austrian photographer.” Like “Thomas Walker’s” photographs, those pictures that could not be identified as fabrications were of dubious origin. Tottle points out that many were first published in the German Nazi party’s organ Völkischer Beobachter.14

In other words, the famine-genocide narrative was debunked shortly after Joseph Goebbels and his fascist North American confederates like Hearst invented it. However, it would be a powerful propaganda myth for those whose interests it served, which included Ukrainian nationalists.

vs blood lies:

Snyder: Almost No One Claimed that Stalin Meant To Starve Ukrainians To Death..."

Snyder laments that the famine "never took on the clarity of an undisputed event. Almost no one claimed that Stalin meant to starve Ukrainians to death ..." (56) INdeed, "deliberate famine" was not reported at the time - but that was because the myth of the "deliberate famine" had not yet been invented! The notion of a "deliberate famine" or "Holodomor" The term "Holodomor," or "famine-death" to denote that the famine was deliberate and aimed at Ukrainians did not come into official use until the 1990s. See J.-P. Himka, "Encumbered Memory. The Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33," Kritika 14, 2 (Spring 2013), 420. was invented by pro-Nazi, anticommunist Ukrainian nationalists after World War II. One of the earliest statements of it, if not the earliest, is in Volume 2 of The Black Deeds of the Kremlin published in Toronto in 1953. Some the coauthors of this book were complicit in the mass murder of Ukrainian Jews during the Nazi occupation and had written hair-raising anti-Semitic propaganda linking Jews with communism.See Douglas Tottle. Fraud, Famine, and Fascism. The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard (Toronto, Canada: Progress Books, 1987), Appendix: "From Third-Reich Propagandist to Famine-Genocide Author," outlining the career of Olexa Hay-Holowko. The same book also claims that there was no starvation outside the Ukraine - completely false, of course.

unless i'm misunderstanding something here, i think Furr got the myth start date wrong

not a big deal, just something i noticed

Edit: since tears mentioned it below, could someone more knowledgeable ask Furr about this? nvm i'll do it

Edited by Synergy (Nov. 22, 2017 05:41:14)

tears posted:

send your original research to GROVER CARR FURR THE THIRD and he might add it to his corrigena for the book

Grover Furr posted:

Your question: Yes, there were a few people who claimed the famine was "deliberate" from way back -- from the time of the famine itself, in fact.

But this story never caught on. The main emphasis of the Hearst, and Nazi, versions of the '30s was that the Soviets were hiding the famine. And I think that's true -- they were.

The term "Holodomor" is so recent that even Conquest does not cite in in his 1987 book. You can find the term earlier than that, but it is very rare until the end of the USSR, when the Ukrainian Nationalists who had collaborated with the Nazis flood back into Ukraine and promote it like mad.

I hope this is helpful!

Sincerely,

Grover Furr

in the response email he also really wanted to know my identity for some reason

Synergy posted:

in the response email he also really wanted to know my identity for some reason

anonymous/pseudonymous correspondence is a social convention that we kind of take for granted but older folks who aren't as accustomed to internet socialization find it kind of scary, especially with strangers asking about controversial political topics. it's understandable for him to be suspicious, it's a shame that makes things uncomfortable on both sides but what can ya do.

As with “whataboutism,” “disinformation” was a term invented by anti-communists at the tail end of the Cold War to paint the Soviets as uniquely dishonest—all of these terms deployed to paint universally used means of rhetoric and political intrigue as “devious inventions of the inscrutable Russian mind.”

the source for disinformation links back to this wikipedia article which says:

Usage of the term related to a Russian tactical weapon started in 1923, when the Deputy Chairman of the KGB-precursor the State Political Directorate (GPU), I. S. Unshlikht, called for the foundation of "a special disinformation office to conduct active intelligence operations". The GPU was the first organization in the Soviet Union to utilize the term disinformation for their intelligence tactics. William Safire wrote in his 1993 book Quoth the Maven that disinformation was used by the KGB predecessor to indicate: "manipulation of a nation's intelligence system through the injection of credible, but misleading data". From this point on, disinformation became a tactic used in the Soviet political warfare called active measures. Active measures were a crucial part of Soviet intelligence strategy involving forgery as covert operation, subversion, and media manipulation.

is there any truth to this? is the quote fabricated, mistranslated or am i missing some context?

Soviet_Salami posted:

His argument that the USSR didn't invade Poland goes like this:
the day before the invasion the Polish government fled, technically Poland ceased to exist, and technically the Red Army moved into Terra Nullius.

does he use that term? i hope not because that's not what it means

Synergy posted:

when i sent him the question i also mentioned the rhizzone, who knows if he investigated further though

i recall he learned about his fan club here back in february, wonder if he remembered https://rhizzone.net/forum/post/340183/
a few more correspondences and he'll be wanting an account

cars posted:

the chumps who think they can or should turn critique of liberal identity politics into Red recruitment of 4chan should probably just revive the scare story about Lenin nationalizing/redistributing the country's wife supply

what is goin on pic.twitter.com/nhlYiB9UKC

— Milo "Sevic" Yiannopoulos (@HenryKrinkIe) December 1, 2017

AynRandAnCap posted:

snuggly wuggly socialists

social media was a mistake