lungfish posted:
How could the current system of economics not take credit for its economic achievements? Even Marx wouldn't deny it that. Because Marx's predictions were wrong and the wealthy first world nations rejected his revolution, the backwater jokers that called themselves Communists were endlessly playing catchup with the capitalists. And they mostly did it in a horrifying way. And then it collapsed and became discredited the world round, except the nightmare that is North Korea.

Money doesn't literally spin the world, no, but it is a social tool that impacts every aspect of our material life, which is what we're talking about here.

That's not what I said lungfish. I said capitalism shouldn't take credit for the benefits of general technological improvement (or rather, apologists of capitalism should not use that as evidence) since non-capitalist socioeconomic modes achieved similar things for similar reasons. It handwaves away the peculiar character of capitalism (which is what is actually being debated here) and asserts capitalism as the only possible modernity, which is false both historically and theoretically. You can not legitimately co-opt the benefits of modernity into an advocacy for capitalism, since there have been alternate routes to those same gains. You must argue for capitalism in particular, or else accept that any and all routes to modernity are basically good because they attain those benefits.

lungfish posted:
Impper posted:
technological improvement is driven by energy consumption, not ideology

I have as much access to energy as hippies do but without the ideology which has led me to developing software and thus improving technology I might be sitting in a drumming circle in Zuccotti Park protesting the fascist General Assembly's recently forced-through "consensus" decision to limit drumming so as to better comply with neighborhood authorities.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10/occupy_animal_farm_the_organiz.html

i'm talking about on a societal level, specifically in regards to the state and the state's drive to improve technology

germanjoey posted:

babyfinland posted:

Impper posted:
technological improvement is driven by energy consumption, not ideology

ideology is driven by energy consumption!

i thought you had disavowed dialectical materialism, baby finland.

and yet, and yet...

NounsareVerbs posted:
Getting rid of
1. private campaign funding and
2. the first-past-the-post version of all voting processes

in Washington would go a long way to kickstart an actual democracy and mayyybe make the country more just at home and abroad. unfortunately the only people who could make that happen are the same people that would suddenly lose all power if they did so guess how likely those demands are to be met.

i used to have this fantasy about converting the us senate into a proportionally apportioned parliament ("nice round number! it'd be perfect!") until i looked at article v and found out that literally the only thing in the constitution you can't change via amendment is state representation in the senate. you could repeal the first if you got the votes but you'll only pry wyoming and north dakotas' senate votes out of their cold dead hands