#121

cars posted:


Nobody is saying the weird stuff you are putting in their mouths and I think you need to log off and cool down for a bit, comrade.

#122

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

I'm getting a vibe from this thread that some posters think they're disagreeing with each other, but it's not apparent to me what they're disagreeing about beyond a matter of rhetorical emphasis. The passion is expected and good but let's all make sure we're channeling it properly and not talking past each other.



If what everyone agrees on is,

1) plainclothes cops are infiltrating these protests with specific plans to instigate violence, to hurt and kill people,
2) that documented fact is different from the KKK propaganda line about supposed "outside agitators" stirring up the docile blacks, and infiltration goes hand-in-hand with spreading that KKK line,
3) plainclothes infiltrators do not make everything confrontational or every act of community self-defense that happens out there a cop plot, and it's stupid to accuse people who acknowledge and plan for infiltration of saying that,

then you're right.

If someone doesn't understand each and every one of those points to be true then I'm not sure why they're even posting here, so maybe you're right, maybe they do.

Which means that anyone who's trying to conflate the documented fact about cops with the KKK line about "outside agitators" in bad faith should check themselves because they know better.

#123

cars posted:

Tor is a CIA surveillance project like most "secure" encrypted communications methods. None of that shit "works" or is "secure" afaik. Yasha Levine has done extensive work investigating and documenting that.

mainly kinch is right that it wouldn't matter anyway because the companies that make your phone and provide service to it will hand any law enforcement, security or intelligence agency anything they ask for, as soon as they ask for it. It's all available from every end point whenever they want it.

I'd add only that if you download an app like Signal onto your device, you're almost certainly put on a list for potential heightened surveillance, because you've identified yourself as someone who wants to hide something from the cops.

None of that should scare you away from politics or action but you should be fully aware of all of it. Just because you're under surveillance doesn't mean the government is God or omniscient or invincible.



I agree that tor is not 100% secure, was created by the US government, and that really the only way to say something you don't want anyone else to hear is face to face in an unbugged room with no one else around. However I don't think people should be discouraged from using tor browser, especially if they're using tails os and encrypting messages on top of that. It seems basically true to me that the us government would not have a system with gaping backdoors just to honeypot people, because then those backdoors could be used against them by their own enemies. Now this is a flexible logic, a balance that could be undone, but still safer then nothing. I took a p bare bones search on levine's blog and on that particular blog post this seemed to be the most egregiously unsafe thing about tor “Tor is known to be insecure against an adversary that can observe a user’s traffic entering and exiting the anonymity network. Quite simple and efficient techniques can correlate traffic at these separate locations by taking advantage of identifying traffic patterns. As a result, the user and his destination may be identified, completely subverting the protocol’s security goals.” Which honestly, idk I'm not the smartest person but doesn't sound like a whole lot of information could be gathered with this method. Also found more stuff around tor that they admitted they'd potentially be willing to betray their own "no backdoor policies" which still suggests to me that to do so would be an exception rather then the rule. So yeah don't download tor browser to your microsoft os and just close firefox and open it when u want to google "what is maoism third worldism" but I think its still a good tool when used in conjunction with other methods.

#124

cars posted:

If what everyone agrees on is,

1) plainclothes cops are infiltrating these protests with specific plans to instigate violence, to hurt and kill people,
2) that documented fact is different from the KKK propaganda line about supposed "outside agitators" stirring up the docile blacks, and infiltration goes hand-in-hand with spreading that KKK line,
3) plainclothes infiltrators do not make everything confrontational or every act of community self-defense that happens out there a cop plot, and it's stupid to accuse people who acknowledge and plan for infiltration of saying that,


everyone here knows all this and we're all just excited to yell at each other. haven't had a thread where we all got rowdy for a while so each of us has to assume everyone else is stupid for a couple minutes as a fun icebreaker

#125

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:



My advice is for you to stop trying to give out orders. Don't mistake distance for objectivity.

If you're going to dish out empty condescension today and say what I'm talking about isn't real and doesn't matter when the entire last page was filled with the discussion I'm continuing, then I don't know why I'd listen to you. I think you're a fine poster Petrol but I don't know why I'd ever listen to that.

#126
ive noticed that the right and the liberal politicians and media apparatus are all in a state of total disbelief that people could be protesting out of a deep rage against an unjust system, spurred into action by yet another open and shut murder caught on tape. for the right, the denial takes the shape of george soros, who is somehow pulling the strings on a cross country uprising. and for the liberals, everything is "outside agitators," either bad white anarchists or maybe even putin or china at work. the inability or intentional unwillingness to confront the reality of the discontent of the populace is just shocking, a total disconnect and disrespect for the very people who are out there making themselves heard.
#127
we're seeing today the almost mechanistically predictable process of how the planned narrative finishes. that liberal disavowal of the political structures at play links up with the closing in of state repression like a steel trap: all the violence placed on the shoulders of "Agitators" who are of course going to turn out to be the politically active and skilled elements organizing and mobilizing people, and not the pigs on window smash patrol. saccharine praises being sung of abstract peaceful innocents who are absolved of everything, the exact moment cops decide to take a quick break from shooting people to shake hands for photo ops.

the execution is brutally elegant: participating in dissent is reaffirmed as every Free American's God Given Right, daring to organize that same dissent is now officially terrorism. the perfect bipartisan solution. everyone applauds!
#128
an important point of synthesis, imo, is that the police/fash/etc are "outside agitators" in the primary sense of acting as a military occupation force that kills for fun, in addition to infiltrating resistance groups with a diverse group of tactics that don't map usefully generalized large scale actions or political lines. and further that this is by design, for loosely the same reason that the NYT will often publish people who arent totally in line with the average editorial opinion, since the way that they maintain relevance is by tactically and strategically influencing the perimeter of acceptable discourse
#129

cars posted:


PM'd

#130

c_man posted:

an important point of synthesis, imo, is that the police/fash/etc are "outside agitators" in the primary sense of acting as a military occupation force that kills for fun, in addition to infiltrating resistance groups with a diverse group of tactics that don't map usefully generalized large scale actions or political lines. and further that this is by design, for loosely the same reason that the NYT will often publish people who arent totally in line with the average editorial opinion, since the way that they maintain relevance is by tactically and strategically influencing the perimeter of acceptable discourse



if i've ever used the phrase "outside agitators", the police are 100% what i have in mind

#131

cars posted:

1) plainclothes cops are infiltrating these protests with specific plans to instigate violence, to hurt and kill people,
2) that documented fact is different from the KKK propaganda line about supposed "outside agitators" stirring up the docile blacks, and infiltration goes hand-in-hand with spreading that KKK line,
3) plainclothes infiltrators do not make everything confrontational or every act of community self-defense that happens out there a cop plot, and it's stupid to accuse people who acknowledge and plan for infiltration of saying that,



you talkin about my post? yea the enemy works the angles. voice-vote is a defense against Tommy Troop martyring the windows of the funko pop shop for a reddit post or whatever.

#132
i am a gentle lamb
#133
where is the americancivilwarlivemap already
#134

sovnarkoman posted:

where is the americancivilwarlivemap already



#135

toyot posted:

cars posted:

1) plainclothes cops are infiltrating these protests with specific plans to instigate violence, to hurt and kill people,
2) that documented fact is different from the KKK propaganda line about supposed "outside agitators" stirring up the docile blacks, and infiltration goes hand-in-hand with spreading that KKK line,
3) plainclothes infiltrators do not make everything confrontational or every act of community self-defense that happens out there a cop plot, and it's stupid to accuse people who acknowledge and plan for infiltration of saying that,

you talkin about my post? yea the enemy works the angles. voice-vote is a defense against Tommy Troop martyring the windows of the funko pop shop for a reddit post or whatever.



The cop wreckers have shown that if voice voting works along Occupy lines then they can absolutely cripple the effectiveness and efficiency of the organization and make it unpleasant to be a part of.

#136

pogfan1996 posted:

The cop wreckers have shown that if voice voting works along Occupy lines then they can absolutely cripple the effectiveness and efficiency of the organization and make it unpleasant to be a part of.


god you just gave me a flashback, must have annoyance ptsd from the insanity of strarry-eyed earnest occupy organizers trying to get a crowd of thousands to do mass consensus decision making. what an utterly useless fucking circus that was

#137
You mean you don’t enjoy call and response consensus-building 3 words at a time in 20 mile per hour wind?
#138
to address my lmao-inducing post:

I didn't spell it out, but what I mean is that this entire line of argument is a waste of time. Whether or not there is empirically actually maybe one cop in a small town in California who actually does sympathize, or whether or not any given smashing of a police car or burning of a police station is actually done by person A or B or C or a cop, or whether it is ok to smash a police car (lol yes obviously), I don't give a shit about that conversation and I don't want to see people arguing about it, it doesn't matter. What matters is the bigger movement and the general momentum and the people's sentiment which is clear and strong so let's not sit around talking about some shit that one cop may or may not actually think. Or what mayors, governors, and media are desperately spinning to try and get behind the right winning ticket as they recognize things are out of their hands. None of that dumb shit matters.

I should have been more clear.
#139
So what I meant by lines blurring in every direction was specifically the cataloguing of, you know, cop A said he was sad, or protestor B yelled at protestor C to stop smashing a cop car, or whatever. Don't care. The general action is clear
#140
If you say mic check into the mirror 3 times on November 7th you can sometimes hear the collective consciousness of tankies collapse in pain
#141

pogfan1996 posted:

You mean you don’t enjoy call and response consensus-building 3 words at a time in 20 mile per hour wind?


I also enjoyed "Everyone gets a voice" meaning literally anyone with a stupid idea can line up in real time completely unvetted to make a deranged proposal and then we have to waste 45 minutes on every single one pretending to debate as if they weren't completely untenable while the same 5 people take up each discussion period shouting completely unrelated screeds at each other. Then once an organizer actually has the nerve to tell someone they'd talked enough and are wasting everyone's time you could expect a 12,000 word complaint letter circulating the next day enumerating the tyrannical crimes of the sinister clique silencing important voices.


So if people are wondering why the twee campouts were skipped this time and everyone went straight to setting cop cars on fire, isn't just about anger and resistance, it's also about time management and self respect.

#142

So if people are wondering why the twee campouts were skipped this time and everyone went straight to setting cop cars on fire, isn't just about anger and resistance, it's also about time management and self respect.





the rhizzone

#143

shriekingviolet posted:

So if people are wondering why the twee campouts were skipped this time and everyone went straight to setting cop cars on fire, isn't just about anger and resistance, it's also about time management and self respect.


*up-twinkles*

#144

toyot posted:

you talkin about my post? yea the enemy works the angles. voice-vote is a defense against Tommy Troop martyring the windows of the funko pop shop for a reddit post or whatever.


when all of the white peopl are at the funeral of the funko pop shop mourning we can walk up and be really snarky. like. "oh boy! not the funko pop shop! fuck! god... danng!!!!! fuck! i love funko pops!" but then be like, secretly, making fun of them

#145

cars posted:

Are you all fucking with me. Cops are "joining" protests and then attacking them with military weapons 5 minutes later. Cops are starting fights because they are a colonial occupation force and they intend to win to by force. The line about outside agitators stirring up trouble is a distinct white supremacist anti Commie line that all of you should know by heart backwards and forwards. Are you fucking with me. Well bye.



yeah. the few examples of cops "joining" protests is literally a counter-insurgency tactic they're trained in to gauge the mood of the crowd, generate good PR, etc. which you have to be absolutely credulous to think is something good for protesters. and, of course, you just have to wait for 8pm to go by for the same cops to start bashing heads in again to prove the obvious lie.

#146
i did find it somewhat interesting that the secret service threw trump into a bunker when the protestors got closer to the white house. apparently the secret service believes its possible for a crowd to overrun their defenses. chalk that one up into the "hmm" category of hypothetical things that are fun to ponder but i am no way advocating in any general or specific sense.
#147
hhic in his bunker... trump you know what you have to do
#148
I think this round of uprisings is gonna end fairly soon, but it's already been incredible prep for the next round. Who knows where we'll be by the end of the decade? Hopefully with a party that can really lead.
#149

colddays posted:

I think this round of uprisings is gonna end fairly soon, but it's already been incredible prep for the next round. Who knows where we'll be by the end of the decade? Hopefully with a party that can really lead.



Idk like I’m seeing cops murdering people, nazis murdering people, confederate monuments torn down, and Washington DC in flames, this thing has some legs

#150

pogfan1996 posted:

colddays posted:

I think this round of uprisings is gonna end fairly soon, but it's already been incredible prep for the next round. Who knows where we'll be by the end of the decade? Hopefully with a party that can really lead.



Idk like I’m seeing cops murdering people, nazis murdering people, confederate monuments torn down, and Washington DC in flames, this thing has some legs


plus with like a quarter of the country now unemployed, the albatross of "prior commitments" has been loosed from many necks

#151
.
#152

dimashq posted:

.



agreed

#153
if anyone was wondering if they could watch like 9 livestreams at the same time like a supernerd:

https://www.twitch.tv/woke
#154

BOFAnshen posted:

I took a p bare bones search on levine's blog and on that particular blog post this seemed to be the most egregiously unsafe thing about tor “Tor is known to be insecure against an adversary that can observe a user’s traffic entering and exiting the anonymity network. Quite simple and efficient techniques can correlate traffic at these separate locations by taking advantage of identifying traffic patterns. As a result, the user and his destination may be identified, completely subverting the protocol’s security goals.” Which honestly, idk I'm not the smartest person but doesn't sound like a whole lot of information could be gathered with this method.



Then maybe you should read his book. About half of 'Surveillance Valley' is dedicated to this question. Tor is nevertheless maintained and written by mortals. As Levine says:

It was a baffling argument. Tor was not “a law of physics” but computer code written by a small group of human beings. It was software like any other, with holes and vulnerabilities that were constantly being discovered and patched. Encryption algorithms and computer systems might be based on abstract mathematical concepts, but translated into the real physical realm they become imperfect tools, constrained by human error and the computer platforms and networks they run on. After all, even the most sophisticated encryption systems are eventually cracked and broken. And neither Lee nor anyone else could answer the bigger question raised by my reporting: If Tor was such a danger to the US government, why would this same government continue to spend millions of dollars on the project’s development, renewing the funding year after year? Imagine if, during World War II, the Allies funded the development of Nazi Germany’s Enigma machine instead of mounting a massive effort to crack the code.



Levine answers his own question about the funding of the TOR project. It grows out of an initiative of the Broadcasting Board of Governors (bringing you Voice of America and Radio Free Asia). In most early years 90% of TORs budget is from the pentagon in one way or another. The goal of the project is this:

To truly hide spies and soldiers, Tor needed to distance itself from its Pentagon roots and include as many different users as possible. Activists, students, corporate researchers, soccer moms, journalists, drug dealers, hackers, child pornographers, agents of foreign intelligence services, terrorists.



A critical mass of normal user is needed to cover up the tracks of Amerikkan spies, the intended purpose of the TOR browser.


#155

#156

BOFAnshen posted:

It seems basically true to me that the us government would not have a system with gaping backdoors just to honeypot people, because then those backdoors could be used against them by their own enemies.

Now this is a flexible logic, a balance that could be undone, but still safer then nothing.I took a p bare bones search on levine's blog and on that particular blog post this seemed to be the most egregiously unsafe thing about tor “Tor is known to be insecure against an adversary that can observe a user’s traffic entering and exiting the anonymity network. Quite simple and efficient techniques can correlate traffic at these separate locations by taking advantage of identifying traffic patterns. As a result, the user and his destination may be identified, completely subverting the protocol’s security goals.” Which honestly, idk I'm not the smartest person but doesn't sound like a whole lot of information could be gathered with this method.



A whole lot of information could be gathered with that method.

The other thing about TOR, the way it was explained to me, is that it has this one liiiittle tiny theoretically unlikely flaw where if someone has compromised or outright owns and controls a sufficient number of the many nodes TOR routes through, critical information to further isolate and trace a connection could be collated over time from the occurrences where the compromised nodes all line up. Particularly easily if that someone could also observe entrance and exit from the network as above. And uhhhhhh guess what the major world power that funds TOR and provides TOR with material resources has access to?

The US internal security culture has an institutional obsession with the idea of encryption that is completely perfect except for a backdoor that they control, during the Clinton 2016 campaign she showboated about the idea and at the time a bunch of cryptography nerds harumphed "hogwash! impossible! stupid!" and sure, if you're thinking strictly in terms of the mathematics of cryptography a one time pad is perfectly unbreakable and that's all there is to it. But that's thinking about the problem too narrowly.

They don't compromise the data encryption itself because they don't need to: they transcend the problem by controlling the infrastructure. They're quite content to sit back holding all the other cards learning which people with something to hide are trusting in their program to communicate secretly, and where, and with whom... All of that is extremely valuable information. This is what you're not seeing about "it doesn't make sense to distribute an encryption method with a giant backdoor that could be used against you," when the backdoor is strategic ownership and/or unmitigated direct access of physical infrastructure you don't have to worry very much about suddenly or unknowingly losing control. That access doesn't exist for anyone else because it's a backdoor predicated on a power relationship instead of coding.

#157
amerikkka having a totally normal one

#158

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

amerikkka having a totally normal one



#159
#160

pogfan1996 posted:

colddays posted:


I think this round of uprisings is gonna end fairly soon, but it's already been incredible prep for the next round. Who knows where we'll be by the end of the decade? Hopefully with a party that can really lead.



Idk like I’m seeing cops murdering people, nazis murdering people, confederate monuments torn down, and Washington DC in flames, this thing has some legs



There's a lot of energy but no organization, and that organization isn't gonna get built in the heat of the moment. The overwhelming mass of the uprisings took the whole system by surprise at first, but now they're clear on the fact that this is on a different scale, and they're getting out the things they prepared for this moment while the masses haven't prepared the capability to handle those things. We, as a class, can't even confidently distinguish organic actions from pig infiltration through the fog right now.

Next time around, and maybe it'll be next year or in 5 years but I think it'll be relatively soon, we'll use the lessons from our failures today to win more. In the in-between time, we'll build the organization that isn't possible to construct on the spot. Like you said in the OP, what's going on now wouldn't be possible without the long grinding work done since the last round of rebellion over racist killings. The next one won't be possible without long grinding work after this one.

Edited by colddays ()