#161
yes indeed... there is probably a difference in consciousness that develops from personal and immediate profit from parasitism, and receiving some of that profit through the wage, several stages removed from the theft? labor aristocrats should have one hand with the workers, from the shared wage relation, lack of life autonomy, and shared workplace, one foot with the lumpen who generate the imperial profit, and one foot with the bourgeoisie who decided their paycheck would be so fat and workday so easy. with the remaining hand they're writing medium posts.
#162
The labor aristocracy does have a relationship to and a presence in the normal cycle of production and distribution. It might be parasitic or not in some way but it’s not lumpen, if relationship to production is the criteria we’re choosing to emphasize. I want more analysis of the politics and history of the labor aristocracy specifically, like sakai wants to see actual mass work among sex workers and the theory that emerges from that.
#163
Settlers and bromma’s ‘worker elite’ are sort of like that. It’d be cool to read about the different labor aristocracies in different revolutionary situations. Like what do Filipino electricians think of the NPA (assuming electricians there are like they are here)
#164

stegosaurus posted:

The labor aristocracy does have a relationship to and a presence in the normal cycle of production and distribution. It might be parasitic or not in some way but it’s not lumpen, if relationship to production is the criteria we’re choosing to emphasize. I want more analysis of the politics and history of the labor aristocracy specifically, like sakai wants to see actual mass work among sex workers and the theory that emerges from that.



https://www.docdroid.net/1uU2Sl6/the-worker-elite-bromma.pdf from the author of the cops are gangsters essay

edit- ha

#165
i gues the only way i can think to properly expain it is when sakai says about settler society "What’s crucial is the mentality of conquest and occupation", what is "crucial" in a society like britain which is run through with parasitism and decadence in a large strata but also is not a settler society....what repaces that mentality?
#166
parmo?
#167

tears posted:

what repaces that mentality?


the power stance

#168
ok thanks it all makes sense now
#169
sorry

my impression was that from mid-19th century to present, UK labor has been unapologetically tied to empire... also culture flows back home, from canada/aus/nz/u.s.a. settlements. if workers understand their shared interest in the spoils of settlement then it puts the shared decadence on class lines right?

it is probably also significant that england sent its lumpen to the US chesapeake colonies until independence, then australia.
#170

toyotathon posted:



although it is deducted from the present real object, the virtual object differs from it in kind: not only does it lack something in relation to the real object from which it is subtracted, it lacks something in itself

#171
prostitution isn't lumpen because the transaction is on market terms and there is no theft, but rapists are lumpen. state-lumpen are also often rapists
#172
i kind of want to re-tread this ^^^ thought starting from marx's famous lumpen list--

Alongside ruined rouès with questionable means of support and of dubious origin, degenerate and adventurous scions of the bourgeoisie, there were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged convicts, runaway galley slaves, swindlers, charlatans, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, procurers, brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, rag-pickers, knife-grinders, tinkers, beggars; in short, the entirely undefined, disintegrating mass, thrown hither and yon, which the French call la bohème.



sakai did a good job slicing and dicing this list into its true class constituents. to recap, the lumpen live by direct theft, this is their defining class property. in the list, he included proletarians

...there were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged convicts, runaway galley slaves, swindlers, charlatans, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, procurers, brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, rag-pickers, knife-grinders, tinkers, beggars...



these non-class elements, not engaged in any production

...there were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged convicts, runaway galley slaves, swindlers, charlatans, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, procurers, brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, rag-pickers, knife-grinders, tinkers, beggars...


(i included gamblers, because gambling is zero production and zero sum, it's a way to semi-randomly concentrate money)

and actual lumpen

...there were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged convicts, runaway galley slaves, swindlers, charlatans, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, procurers, brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, rag-pickers, knife-grinders, tinkers, beggars...



that leaves runaway slaves and brothel keepers. it's weird he included runaway slaves. we today'd consider the theft in slavery to happen at the point of capture and all subsequent slave labor, and not the escape which ends it. slave catching looks like a theft: armed men driving others into traps, or armed men in war enslaving the war enemy. slave escape is theft only from the perspective of the master. so why is it on the lumpen list? balancing a crooked checkbook, how is the second theft equivalent to the first? and why not include the first? in practice an escaped slave, freshly unclassed, will probably lumpenize to survive -- but at that point the former slave status is just trivia. if they pick pockets for bread money then say they're a pickpocket.

sakai stops just short of overturning the old wisdom about lumpen prostitutes and brothel-keepers. prostitutes only engage in theft if, like slave and master, we shortcut our lumpen class analysis and take the law, made by male masters, at face value. if women own their own sex, then women can sell it like a man sells the use of his hands. if fathers own the sexuality of their wives and daughters, then prostitution is theft from patriarchs. prostitutes make the lumpen list, but not rapists, because as j sakai points out the list is a statement of values and not much of a class analysis. rape, much more than prostitution, looks like theft: the rapist could be a swindler in the family preying on and tricking a child half his age, or it could be violent like a mugging. prostitution looks like work. there's an exchange of money, the price is set on a labor market, they advertise in the backs of local papers and on vegas trading cards, and the failure to pay invites violence.

the US state lumpen in the military, from naples to saigon to baghdad, drive women into sexual service, and the local pig lumpen (at least out here in the bay) every six months it seems get busted for raping kids or some other rape ring. not to mention cop family violence and rape. lumpen skills like the use of weapons, intimidation, cons and threats, are the shared skills of rapists and so it's no wonder we find them co-terminus. the existence of prostitution, and the market price of sex, shows that rape is a theft. and it is an empirical strength of class theory that, just like a worker might leave one job then re-train for another, but stay within the working class, the state lumpen might intimidate during a traffic stop or rob an iraqi museum, then use those same skills for rape, all within the lumpen class.

Edited by toyotathon ()

#173
Re. your pickpocket line. Try this on: lumpen formations aren't necessarily cast out of social production, but their social role by itself doesn't support them and they have to go outside the normal boundaries of waged labor in order to survive. This act of going to the margins to forage looked a lot different at the time Marx was writing than it does here today, and it may have included, for example, literal foraging, which iirc was criminalized in many places at that time. (If I make any incredibly ahistorical claims here please someone correct me.) Sakai discussing the flow of "chips" out of English shipyards is an exploration of a tolerated lumpen formation - a whole lumpen neighborhood built out of material theft from the docks, where lived many "gainfully employed" people who weren't paid enough to have housing. So a commonality between swindlers, beggars, prostitutes and knife-grinders was that all had to steal... fruit from the orchards, wood from the shipyards, or bread from people. The difference of course is that in many cases the "stealing" is completely righteous and justified and as always the real theft is the enclosure of the commons. I would say under this classification the sex worker in a sense "steals" the inflated wages of men and bourgeois men in particular, by venturing across class lines and becoming middle managers for their own bodies.
#174
the point yr making that there's rarely a pure lumpen, that most activity is a supplement, yea no argument from me. i mean i'm going off the same book(s) and don't have a lot of first hand experience. i think we could even look at that further, and flip it. sometimes lumpenism's actually a wage (like collecting scrap wood in order to build and house and not die of exposure, or the bbq at the railyard, or foraging for survival to be fit for work the next day... bringing wages up to iron law levels). but sometimes a wage disguises lumpenism.

one project on my list is a real breakdown of state lumpen pay, which nowadays should have good enough documentation. like how much of it is wage and how much is direct theft. like not seeing the law as the definition of lumpenism, we should not take the wage at face value. gotta analyze total police activity, clearing out the evidence locker, ya know, all the little treats for themselves. like speeding tickets are only there so that there'll be a certain concentration of cops on the highways, at the ready, holding + protecting capital's trade arteries. the ruling class designs and sell the cars, they could make them only go 80mph if they wanted. the tickets are just their carrots, so that they always have police presence on the roads, and there's probably more total extraction from them than say, old highwaymen, since tickets are linked to the banking system and not merely wealth held on one's person.

so petty lumpenism supplements and 'completes' proletarian wages to bring them up to survival level, in some cases, and, sometimes state-lumpen wages are in fact lumpenism in disguise. prior methods of lumpenism, like highwaymen, or piracy/navies, are reconsidered by the bourgeoisie for pro-social purposes. the lumpen theft from you might get routed thru banks and returned to the lumpen as a wage, but to collect traffic tickets there has to be an escalating series of violent threats all the way to car theft and jail time. a fun experiment in class theory would be to just keep driving when you see flashers, take em all the way home, go inside and get comfortable, then come out to accept your ticket. the cop's thin working class disguise'll fall away before that tho.

i definitely don't think that the sex worker steals from the john, and i'm disconnected from that world but i'd guess neither he nor she think that either. for whatever that's worth. it's just an illegal market transaction, she isn't robbing him. and i'm not saying you ascribe to this, but it's one way of how prostitution could be reasoned to be lumpen: if sex belongs to fathers, in that specific context, sex work is theft, in that, she is selling something that was dad's to sell. in patriarchy the money is his by right.

edit---sorry if i'm like, not talking about this right, scrolling up the page i clearly wanna talk about it, cuz it's fertile class theory, a whole new theory of the state, splitting the state into its constituent classes. more exacting than althusser's split of repressive state apparatus + ideological state apparatus. i want to talk about it but not have an internet debate?? i get that i come off like i do, but i don't... maybe i'm just gonna think thru it more solo and that's cool too... thx swampmensch for the thoughts...

Edited by toyotathon ()

#175

toyotathon posted:

sometimes state-lumpen wages are in fact lumpenism in disguise. prior methods of lumpenism, like highwaymen, or piracy/navies, are re-routed by the bourgeoisie for pro-social purposes. it's routed thru their banks and returned to them as a wage, but to collect traffic tickets there has to be an escalating series of violent threats all the way to car theft and jail time.

Maybe a good definition of lumpen would be, "wage laborers producing less than is needed to support their own livelihoods" with the understanding that their assignation to (non)productive roles isn't a matter of individual choice but the extreme devaluation of labor in the chaos of stagnating capitalism.

i definitely don't think that the sex worker steals from the john, and i'm disconnected from that world but i'd guess neither he nor she think that either. for whatever that's worth. it's just an illegal transaction, she isn't robbing him. and i'm not saying you ascribe to this, but it's one rationale of how prostitution is lumpen: if one believes that sex belongs to fathers, that's the only way that sex work could be a theft, that she's selling sometimes that was her dad's to sell.

I think we have to ignore the "transaction" when considering sex work. Thanks to centuries of objectification we have this tendency to imagine prostitutes out there choosing to rent out their body, bartering, getting the Glengarry leads, when most have as much economic control as a manager at McDonald's. Maybe they can turn away the obviously dangerous men and set certain standards like "no shoes, no service" or "I use condoms" but the bigger issues like, "where can I operate, how much can I charge, can I only fuck men I enjoy being around," aren't set by individuals. When I say "theft" I mean more like parasitic, off a vein of exploitation. Police feed off the big fat artery of robbing and displacing minority communities, while sex workers feed off all the capillaries of gender oppression that trickle bloody super-wages to individual men.

i want to talk about it but not have an internet debate?? i get that i come off like i do, but i don't... maybe i'm just gonna think thru it more solo and that's cool too... thx swampmensch for the thoughts...

I'm not trying to debate you, nothing you've said has been wrong or dumb, but note that I've pre emptively activated the paragraph-by-paragraph rebuttal format in case I do scent a fleck of ad hominem attacks

#176

swampman posted:

toyotathon posted:
Maybe a good definition of lumpen would be, "wage laborers producing less than is needed to support their own livelihoods" with the understanding that their assignation to (non)productive roles isn't a matter of individual choice but the extreme devaluation of labor in the chaos of stagnating capitalism.



i think i see yr pt that like the # of wage-earning jobs isn't fixed by the wage-earning class so the breakdown between worker and lumpen is really out of either class's control?? all wealth is made by the working class so what lumpen take, could have been provided in a communal relationship or whatever

#177
The discussion in this thread has convinced me to finally pick up sakai
#178

swampman posted:

we have this tendency to imagine prostitutes out there choosing to rent out their body, bartering, getting the Glengarry leads,



i didn't actually imagine this but now i am and it's pretty funny thanks

#179

Spatial_Reasoning posted:

The discussion in this thread has convinced me to finally pick up sakai



use the legs!

#180
i been readin lots of sakai and related stuff lately and im still not sure what or who sakai is or if sakai even exists
#181
i've been trying to look up shit on marxist theory of law and i found this https://www.marxists.org/archive/pashukanis/1932/xx/state.htm but was wonderin if ppl maybe knew of other resources. that one is basically about the "what but not why" of positivist bourgeois legal theory, and an outline of new law under DotP. the law is the connective tissue between state-lumpen and the ruling class, the class which reproduces the social order thru ideology. state-lumpen get access to rich bourgeois institutions, whole bank accts instead of just wallet cash expropriations, by carrying out lumpen activity in accordance w/ law, to help the ruling class reproduce the social system. that pays better than normal direct lumpen parasitism. although the parasitism might look similar in form (car theft w/ tow trucks instead of hotwiring, slave-catching for prisons instead of plantations) but not necessarily target... wonderin if people could point me some place productive... ty
#182
i’ve been trying to find translated or translatable writings of Stučka for like 15 years that weren’t just dubious paraphrases from CIA/Trot/ultra-left books, imo the history of a lot of Soviet legal theory seems to have been written by the victors in the most petty and useless ways that cliche could possibly imply. much of the writing on it starts with trying to divine who was a “Stalinist” in their heart of hearts, then works backwards from there to try and prove it, which is taken to be the same thing as 1) discrediting them, 2) condemning them and 3) proving they were never Real Socialists and don’t count on some imaginary scoreboard.
#183
probably the #3 thing that drives people in the West to become communists is how every other form of “left” politics there has to waste a ton of energy refusing to own history’s most powerful & influential socialist projects. #2 reason is confessing the sin of onanism with firm purpose of amendment and the #1 reason is this web site.
#184

cars posted:

i’ve been trying to find translated or translatable writings of Stučka for like 15 years that weren’t just dubious paraphrases from CIA/Trot/ultra-left books,


if you have any luck please share. thank.

#185
yeah i will but eventually i will probably just pay someone to do it in the dusty library of my giant castle.
#186
Something I've noticed that kind of proves the purpose of history as a discipline under capitalism is how it seems that every last inter-war & WWII primary-source document purporting to detail a fascist or Nazi "theory" of X or Y seems to be available anywhere you want, in any language you want, even though the inevitable conclusion of scholarship on any such "Nazi theory of..." or "fascist theory of..." document is that it was superfluous trash, written by a hyperactive costume nerd, that everyone in Nazi or fascist governance completely ignored.

On the other hand, legal theory & jurisprudence within the USSR and the Warsaw Pact shaped not just that part of the world directly for 80 years (as well as much of the rest of it through allied states) it also shaped and continues to shape the former USSR, the former Warsaw Pact and much of the post-colonial world through its legal and material artifacts... and yet, for a lot of it, you're lucky if you're able to find it published recently in the original language in which it was written, even though much of it, even the older stuff condemned by different governments in those countries, was apparently readily available in the early 1990s.

Normally, I might think it's a little dramatic to say this is because taking the socialist stuff seriously poses too much of a threat to bourgeois goals for the academy, so systems of ideology pushed it into disappearance through edging out & discrediting those who tried to study it and who might have given the academy reason to preserve it. But comparing the poverty of access to the necessary sources to the sea of ink spilled on condemning the Soviet Union's legal system and those of allied states in Europe, let alone those of resource-rich post-colonial countries, it's pretty convenient that most of the supposed scholarship on the topic now takes place on the far end of a game of Telephone.
#187
That also reflects, though, how real Nazi legal theory was just existing bourgeois legal theory warped to serve the purposes of a particular mayfly state that got its face kicked in by Communists.
#188

toyotathon posted:

i've been trying to look up shit on marxist theory of law and i found this https://www.marxists.org/archive/pashukanis/1932/xx/state.htm but was wonderin if ppl maybe knew of other resources. that one is basically about the "what but not why" of positivist bourgeois legal theory, and an outline of new law under DotP. the law is the connective tissue between state-lumpen and the ruling class, the class which reproduces the social order thru ideology. state-lumpen get access to rich bourgeois institutions, whole bank accts instead of just wallet cash expropriations, by carrying out lumpen activity in accordance w/ law, to help the ruling class reproduce the social system. that pays better than normal direct lumpen parasitism. although the parasitism might look similar in form (car theft w/ tow trucks instead of hotwiring, slave-catching for prisons instead of plantations) but not necessarily target... wonderin if people could point me some place productive... ty



check out Punishment and Social Structure by Rusche and Kirchheimer I've heard Marxism and Criminology: A History of Criminal Selectivity by Valeria Vegh Weis is an updated version but I haven't read it.

I would stay far away from anything contemporary and theoretical, it usually falls into one of 4 schools: trots (this is how Pashukanis is used today, with the early theory of the withering away of the law used to disparage socialism and his later work being done under coercion and therefore safely ignored); liberals (most "socialists" are this and argue that socialism should preserve liberal human rights and rule of law but make them better); postmodern liberals ("critical jurisprudence" and basically all the famous postmodern philosophers have the same theory of law which is anti-communist); and pseudo-fascists (follows of Schmitt and Heidegger like Agamben, Ranciere, Mbembe, and Zizek). They are all junk. You can also check out Soviet theory like Vyshinsky and of course the empirical studies of the USSR, China, and Cuba which you can derive your own theory from based on the scattered comments by Marx and Engels as well as the comments by Lenin after the revolution. I would imagine the commentaries on the lumpen you can find would be inferior versions of Sakai.

#189
thanks good knowledge... haymarket's running a sale so it looks like on 7/31 when Marxism and Criminology's in stock, might be able to pick the paperback up for less than $20.

i know from my other amateur pursuits that i can waste infinite time on data-gathering and practice, without a theory to test + structure my learning, and just spin in circles. so i'm going to try to read more, and i appreciate this forum for its expertise and for letting me dump all these half-ideas. i was talking to the fiance about it, and she said that records for cop theft are very easy to obtain. but i realized, even if i pulled all traffic tickets for oakland police, what am i looking for? there's no reason to assume their wage should equal their lumpen parasitism to the penny. like that the police are self-sufficient. any more than the national guard pays for itself, or prisons break even (although i know historically there have been efforts there). and anyway police wages can't be analyzed in isolation, part of their job is to free up surplus from petty-lumpenism, capture and class-transform petty-lumpen into slaves. so on both ends of the ledger it's profitable. (most whites view this slave-making process as the highest emblem of justice, few things represent white values more, the prison is extremely popular to nations that profit from it). so i'll try to structure reading with experiment in mind but i definitely need to read more. thx again
#190
I have a pdf of punishment and social structure as well if you can't find it. I actually don't know a good overview of Marxism and law, they're all just ok and cover all the basics. Which is important because the theory is scattered throughout a bunch of Marx and Engels works but like 90% you can guess already just from a basic understanding of dialectical materialism. My own personal bias is Althusser's writing on law, which you can find a good summary of in Laurent De Sutter's *Althusser and Law* if you have access to a law library. I find it a nice compromise between Losurdo's position that the law is completely autonomous/immanent to society and therefore there is no reason for there to be any withering away of the law and what is called the "orthodox" position that either the law will wither away or is entirely subordinate to the repressive apparatus.
#191
So we might say that lumpen formations are proxy and reserve armies for class war - they have various levels of discipline, loyalty and esprit de corps but they're also fighting on either side of the front lines of pre-revolutionary class war to sustain themselves - whether opportunistically, out of desperation, or due to the traditions of dead generations. Some proletarian lumpen formations are tolerated as a basis for containing outbreaks of class war on grounds highly favorable to Empire (through direct policing and movement infiltration) and they can't be wiped out or even reduced in numbers, because that would increase the power of labor and ruin the movement-infiltration possibilities.

I had another thought about the list above that includes professions like "porter" and "knife grinder"... a lot of these jobs are about offering services to the bourgeoisie, and maybe they do or don't pay a living wage, but they also represent a kind of hard headed entrepreneur mindset that is another deal with the capitalist devil. Like you see in NYC pretty often, one food cart vendor will grab some rebar and crumble a rival's vertebrae over a bit of turf - doing the bloody work of enclosing public space, making everyone afraid to organize beyond their family or local racial group. You hear stories about how hard "my grand dad the knife grinder" worked to pay for their son's education. Well since it's not hard to start up as a knife grinder, it probably only paid a living wage because other knife grinders were discouraged from working grand dad's route. Maybe the only "parasitism" in some of these jobs is the small reproduction of class antagonisms. Bail bondsppl... definitely lumpen.

Edited by swampman ()

#192
this contributes nothing to this discussion - i don't know anything about spine-crushing new york hot dog men or the proper definition of "lumpen" - but once upon a time a read a whole bunch about the victorian era london "cats'-meat man". i had to look into it because the term made me worry that they chopped up cats for the poor, but in fact, the cats'-meat man (or woman) rolled a wooden cart down the streets and handed out tripe to cats once or twice a week, paid on a subscription basis by the cat-owners every so often. they made very little and probably smelled like death but they made the cats happy.

contemporary accounts claim that the cats knew which cats'-meat man was theirs and would ignore any others coming down the same streets, which suggests to me that they wouldn't even need rebar.

in retrospect this seems like an obvious scam in which your cat eats a bunch of random meat that was collected from the back of a butcher shop and then every once in a while the man says "oi you owe me two shillings" or something but, heartwarmingly, i didn't come across any negative portrayals of the cats'-meat man, so i choose to believe only good things about them.
#193
Thanks for the anecdote cat admin
#194
thanks for the cat tale

5/5 wtfatcats
#195
https://kersplebedeb.com/posts/the-dangerous-class-and-revolutionary-theory-thoughts-on-the-making-of-the-lumpen-proletariat-by-j-sakai-reviewed-by-joshua-moufawad-paul/

JMP reviews it
#196
I really want to buy this book but it runs a bit expensive so I'm on the fence. This thread has been super helpful at getting my brain going on the topic though I have a somewhat different set of questions going in. I was reading some modern parties' analyses of the lumpen and I guess it was odd to think that it practically has not been really re-analysed significantly in the past 150 years or whatever. So I really am just trying to understand what is essential or unites lumpen activities as being lumpen, Because I see a lot of loose features thrown around like that it's about the illegality, being "unproductive", or about being "anti-social", on top of being external to the relations of production between bourgeoisie and proletariat. But none of that seems sufficient to me, and I've never been able to understand specifically what is meant then by unproductive or anti-social. For one thing, I'm trying to understand why sex work/prostitution is lumpen. What makes it similar to like the petty theft against the people stuff? Lumpen as most people talk about it seems like it comes out of a moral judgment more than a material or class analysis. So I'm interested in what people think based on the book or not. Probably gonna pick it up soon anyway.

stegosaurus posted:

Settlers and bromma’s ‘worker elite’ are sort of like that. It’d be cool to read about the different labor aristocracies in different revolutionary situations. Like what do Filipino electricians think of the NPA (assuming electricians there are like they are here)



Well, I don't know any electricians in the Philippines and I don't know if the profession is like it is in the US. But in general many of the old and existing trade unions are relatively very reactionary and likely to be aligned with the very counterrev Liberal Party. Most of the militant worker organizing sparking the wave of strikes going on right now is of the second tier of non-unionized contractual workers, many of whom are in workplaces with an already-unionized layer of better paid, regularized employees who basically never support the demands of the contractuals, and often actively fight against them. And as far as the NPA, the militant contractual workers would sometimes go to the countryside of their own volition to join the NPA after becoming politicized in their workplace, or at least passively support the armed struggle.

I don't know if that's what a labor aristocracy is but in any case the existing traditional labor movement is very much bought off by the ruling class since at least the end of WW2. Worth noting the industrial working class is already very small in the Philippines (<15% of the population), with most people (up to 75%) being either direct land tenants or semi-feudal agricultural wage workers. In the feudal economy, rich peasants pretty much fulfill the same role as a labor aristocracy.

Edited by mediumpig ()

#197
there's a good scan up on red youth nwa

shit if you're thinkin about reading a book, and you've already been thinking about what it says, and there's a discussion about it going on around you... who knows you might even read it twice.

it and the discussion here got me thinking about how class is a scientific category, because two independent observers could watch+talk to a random person alive, view their relationship to production and their means of getting access to food, and come to the same conclusion about the category. labor for wages buying food on the market, property ownership where the excess labor product becomes money, minus wages, upon the good's issue to market, direct theft to fence for money to buy food on the market, for the petty-lumpen, indirect theft thru the state-lumpen's escalating, legal series of threats, up to the high-tech dungeon. they are distinguishable enough in this basic social experiment to justify lumpenism as a means of survival distinct from the other two means of survival (but a single person can learn the skills + make money in any class).

i'm trying to test where his reasoning leads, about the state including interchangeable groups of lumpen, adding lumpen (like in his supplement on chicago gang experiment being paid to put down worker unrest in the 60s) when the lumpen it has on-call are politically weak. also thinking about how the lumpen mode of production must be ancient, raiding neighbors' production and rape, preceding the property relation.

get the book! be part of a group of marxists working thru the problem, i mean shit what if we got somewhere on the matter