#41

Urbandale posted:

FRSO



Ah yes, after a decent introduction via their broad-left Students for a Democratic Society knockoff, you'll get to the real revolutionary work of harboring rapists all over the country.

#42
but didnt the FRSO Boston (anti-Maximalist) release a .pdf repudiating rape in the strongest terms as Dengist-revisionist?
#43

glomper_stomper posted:

freedom road socialist organization (freedomroad.org) or freedom road socialist organization (frso.org)?



frso.org

SparksBandung posted:

Urbandale posted:

FRSO

Ah yes, after a decent introduction via their broad-left Students for a Democratic Society knockoff, you'll get to the real revolutionary work of harboring rapists all over the country.



the great thing about leftists is that so many who have no idea what theyre talking about feel no need to check their statements on things because they feel instilled by Correctness at all times.

#44
[account deactivated]
#45
leftist orgs are hit with the accusation all the time and it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems. leftbook runs its own unintentional cointelpro, fueled off good intention, halftruth and smugness. the result of the two is that huge chunks of leftists are dissuaded from doing stuff.
#46
Former legendary poster Quind thinks that the FRSO is apologizing for rape - that's all I know about that. They seem like they have one of the better organizational lines than most groups though.

This website seems cool by the way, critiques FRSO's stance on the mass line, I've only read a bit of it and it does seem very spectrum but hell that's fine.

http://massline.info/
#47
i havent read quinds posts on the matter, ive only worked with some of the people from the chapter in question and discussed it with them. i obviously could have been lied to, these were people still in the org, but the details were pretty honest so id seemed like a reasonable story.
#48

Urbandale posted:

leftist orgs are hit with the accusation all the time and it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems. leftbook runs its own unintentional cointelpro, fueled off good intention, halftruth and smugness. the result of the two is that huge chunks of leftists are dissuaded from doing stuff.



Hahahahahhahaha "anyone who thinks x lefty organization has a rape problem is basically CIA"

My sarcasm detector is weak and it's early here, but this and your previous statements are chauvinist and full of moralism based on assumptions. This kind of behavior is anti-communist beyond belief

Edited by SparksBandung ()

#49

Urbandale posted:

it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems


"the problems are real but if you talk about them you're the cia"

#50
Cant it be both?
#51
If you say "X Left organization has a rape problem" without elaborating or giving any sort of evidence, in the context of a discussion between Leftists of "Which organization should us Leftists join?", then yes, you're behaving in the same divisive way that infiltrators encourage. Yes people expect you to actually back up the statement that the FRSO "has a rape problem" before we just swallow it as the truth.

SparksBandung posted:

My sarcasm detector is weak

Dongs has been working on a cure for this in IFAP

#52
[account deactivated]
#53
ill make the website
#54

glomper_stomper posted:

i wonder why people aren't given to more freedom of movement between parties to cultivate a broader range of experience and theory. you might end up with an active core of organizers and cadres well-placed and well-disposed to actually analyze regional conditions, then national conditions through more coordinated efforts, the communist movement itself, and to help the cause of the oppressed and exploited classes through whatever means available.

i don't think a country like the US (or probably canada) is well-suited to vanguard parties yet. communists haven't managed to overcome the inherent geographical obstacles of a country where the urban centers are so overdeveloped and populous they tend to overwhelm any grassroots organization whatsoever and the suburban and rural sections are so sparsely populated and isolated on almost every conceivable level that it's exceedingly difficult to reach out to people in general, especially without private jets or direct lines to obsequious 24 hour news network producers.

they should be able to do the good lord's work wherever they are and i can see how parties could potentially inhibit the growth of any such movement, especially if their resources are already stretched in the urban centers. there should rather be an informal network of cells, comprised of exploited workers and to a lesser extent progressive professionals, spanning almost the entire country that would retain communist principles and act on them accordingly. it would potentially provide the real backbone to any vanguard organization capable of seizing any sort of political, social, or economic power.

a mass base like that would also provide a check against the familiar ambit of certain arrogant students and academics who subsist on political capital and the development of hopeless charlatans like bob avakian.



This is an excellent point. Of all the Canadian organizations I've listed, my sympathies are most with Revolutionary Initiative for these reasons. The other parties give them a hard time for seeming disinterested in forming a "vanguard party" but they raise similar points to the ones you've mentioned - the decadent overdevelopment of city centers, lack of recent experience with truly revolutionary efforts, etc. They talk about this at length in a theoretical work written predominantly by a guy called Kenny Lake in The Spectre That Still Haunts

#55

c_man posted:

Urbandale posted:

it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems

"the problems are real but if you talk about them you're the cia"



some problems are real and some people are the cia. im in favor of public exposure of rapists when parties fail to take care of the problem internally. i believe the steps frso took when this issue came up were appropriate given the situation in question and that the censure was appropriate as well. i believe that the steps the swp in the uk took were inadequate, as were the steps the iso took (this is me talking about iso's san diego brancha while ago). i dont think its contradictory to demand accountability but also not talk mad shit if you actually dont know a damn thing about the situation in question. i think this has been a conversation on here before regarding the psl/wwp split.

Edited by Urbandale ()

#56
urbandale since you're from SD have you ever considered doing a socialist viewing group of the noted antifascist film Top Dog?
#57

Urbandale posted:

c_man posted:
Urbandale posted:
it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems
"the problems are real but if you talk about them you're the cia"


some problems are real and some people are the cia. im in favor of public exposure of rapists when parties fail to take care of the problem internally. i believe the steps frso took when this issue came up were appropriate given the situation in question and that the censure was appropriate as well. i believe that the steps the swp in the uk took were inadequate, as were the steps the iso took (this is me talking about iso's san diego brancha while ago). i dont think its contradictory to demand accountability but also not talk mad shit if you actually dont know a damn thing about the situation in question. i think this has been a conversation on here before regarding the psl/wwp split.



Lol, what is this "you actually don't know a damn thing about the situation" stuff you keep alluding to? For all you know I could have been closely connected to the incidents and for all I know you could be some asshole troll in Belarus.

Seriously, this is a moot point on the internet.

Btw you've yet to clarify whether or not you think the FRSO has an issue with sexual assault and how it is addressed and have done nothing but deflect this issue by calling people who have echoed these allegations part of some COINTELPRO plot. I guess Eldrige Cleaver's wife was part of some sort of master CIA plot and had those bruises painted on her by master CIA makeup artists too.


#58

SparksBandung posted:

Btw you've yet to clarify whether or not you think the FRSO has an issue with sexual assault


Protip: the onus is actually on you to explain your position since you're the one who raised this in the first place

#59
[account deactivated]
#60
what's that man doing to his onus?
#61
the way you join frso is you email them, they dont respond, then you randomly meet one of them and explicitly say youre interested in joining and then they dont invite you to join.
#62

glomper_stomper posted:

i wonder why people aren't given to more freedom of movement between parties to cultivate a broader range of experience and theory. you might end up with an active core of organizers and cadres well-placed and well-disposed to actually analyze regional conditions, then national conditions through more coordinated efforts, the communist movement itself, and to help the cause of the oppressed and exploited classes through whatever means available.

i don't think a country like the US (or probably canada) is well-suited to vanguard parties yet. communists haven't managed to overcome the inherent geographical obstacles of a country where the urban centers are so overdeveloped and populous they tend to overwhelm any grassroots organization whatsoever and the suburban and rural sections are so sparsely populated and isolated on almost every conceivable level that it's exceedingly difficult to reach out to people in general, especially without private jets or direct lines to obsequious 24 hour news network producers.

they should be able to do the good lord's work wherever they are and i can see how parties could potentially inhibit the growth of any such movement, especially if their resources are already stretched in the urban centers. there should rather be an informal network of cells, comprised of exploited workers and to a lesser extent progressive professionals, spanning almost the entire country that would retain communist principles and act on them accordingly. it would potentially provide the real backbone to any vanguard organization capable of seizing any sort of political, social, or economic power.

a mass base like that would also provide a check against the familiar ambit of certain arrogant students and academics who subsist on political capital and the development of hopeless charlatans like bob avakian.



yeah this is exactly it. the only thing i would be comfortable joining right now would be a geographically limited org. i am not at all interested in being on the hook for some sketchy meeting someone in new york had with a russian nationalist or weird gender policy in chicago or florida. btw frso's gender policy is weird even if they dont enable rapists or whatever the charge is.

they are also far too secretive and im about done with it honestly. it makes it unreasonably difficult to work with them on anything and shuts down discussion, not that their internal theoretical production is anything remarkable.

at the same time i am interested in industrial concentration, prison work, production of analysis/theory and maybe running Honeckerite candidates for school board or whatever as a troll but also serious. basically everything aside from student bullshit, endless emergency protests and symbolic electoral campaigns. at the same time i am becoming even more ecumenical about, for instance, working with trots.

that said ive been working with a wwp group here that is starting to form a branch and i like the way theyre going about things (again, branches of these groups are basically separate micro-parties already but people pretend theres some sort of commonality and that its linked to Marcyism or post-trotskyism or whatever when it isnt at all) but im not going to join. i am also about >< this close to putting the fact that im a communist into the grapevine at work and letting whatever happens happens. im near the 2000 hour mark of my probationary period and enough people know me that i feel like they couldn't just brush me off. we will see. truly, as mao tse tung once said, "the situation is pretty good in some ways but also weird."

#63

stegosaurus posted:

yeah this is exactly it. the only thing i would be comfortable joining right now would be a geographically limited org.



should be the rules of the road for communists in the U.S. rn, fwiw imo.

#64

SparksBandung posted:

Urbandale posted:

c_man posted:
Urbandale posted:
it certainly doesnt help that there are genuine problems
"the problems are real but if you talk about them you're the cia"


some problems are real and some people are the cia. im in favor of public exposure of rapists when parties fail to take care of the problem internally. i believe the steps frso took when this issue came up were appropriate given the situation in question and that the censure was appropriate as well. i believe that the steps the swp in the uk took were inadequate, as were the steps the iso took (this is me talking about iso's san diego brancha while ago). i dont think its contradictory to demand accountability but also not talk mad shit if you actually dont know a damn thing about the situation in question. i think this has been a conversation on here before regarding the psl/wwp split.

Lol, what is this "you actually don't know a damn thing about the situation" stuff you keep alluding to? For all you know I could have been closely connected to the incidents and for all I know you could be some asshole troll in Belarus.

Seriously, this is a moot point on the internet.

Btw you've yet to clarify whether or not you think the FRSO has an issue with sexual assault and how it is addressed and have done nothing but deflect this issue by calling people who have echoed these allegations part of some COINTELPRO plot. I guess Eldrige Cleaver's wife was part of some sort of master CIA plot and had those bruises painted on her by master CIA makeup artists too.




Do you know what chapter the allegations surround or anything involved?

And no, I explicitly said it wasn't cointelpro. Its leftists fueled by good intentions and self righteousness picking up on stories individuals actually unconnected to the incident began to spread.

Edited by Urbandale ()

#65

SparksBandung posted:

Lol, what is this "you actually don't know a damn thing about the situation" stuff you keep alluding to? For all you know I could have been closely connected to the incidents and for all I know you could be some asshole troll in Belarus.

Seriously, this is a moot point on the internet.



its not a moot point. its never a moot point when people hear that an organization has a rape problem, its a massive political issue entirely seperate from whatever actual complaint there is. as someone on the inside, someone aware of what is going on and who is involved, you have to do a lot of work to adequately begin to address the situation. as someone on the outside of the situation, someone who doesnt have anything other than hearsay to go on, you need to be very careful with how freely you propagate that, because it does have a damaging effect on organizations, no matter how they handle it.

allegedly, this was a bunch of stuff before it was redacted

Edited by Urbandale ()

#66
[account deactivated]
#67
So, for anyone not registered and just browsing this thread, the consensus so far is that the FRSO has completely and successfully purged itself of sexual oppression yet is still not worth a piece of moth shit as an organization
#68

Urbandale posted:

entirely seperate from whatever actual complaint there is.


lmao

#69
can't this be the organization i join? this website, on the internet
#70

toutvabien posted:

can't this be the organization i join? this website, on the internet

Yes! You're now a member. I will send you a laminated card in the mail. You now have access to the secret PDF subforum. If your access doesn't work, contact German Joey.

#71

c_man posted:

Urbandale posted:

entirely seperate from whatever actual complaint there is.

lmao



idk whats so hard about these concepts for you to grasp cman but maybe if you typed more i could explain them

#72
you've got it. the problem is that i'm really really stupid and that once you explain to me in detail how people talking about sexual assault is totally unrelated to someone having been assaulted it will stop being ridiculous
#73
i didnt say it was unrelated lol i said perception is a different problem than reality. i dunno if youre deliberately misreading me all the time or what but its really irritating

Edited by Urbandale ()

#74
edit: i dont care
#75
So what's good security policy for orgs that will minimise threat of abusers and informants etc?

Who does it best who does it worst?

Could be a topic to bring up in the new org u join
#76
cointelpro practically runs itself these days
#77
im tryin to join a community garden, and a biker gang
#78
dance off among cool commie clubs to settle years of blistering polemics
#79

animedad posted:

dance off among cool commie clubs to settle years of blistering polemics



lets do this

#80
[account deactivated]