#121
i'm not sayin i don't understand that, but what does it mean towards our actions? should we all just move back to europe, which we stole from the neanderthals? does mean trying to improve our situations is merely further colonialism?
sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide, but it don't think it's very likely. it's not like i don't support indigenous actions, but do you think they'd be able to overthrow capitalism without our support? im not deriding their abilities or convictions, merely their numbers.
a hypothetical quebec federal state, with first nations and colonialist soviets on equal basis, would still not pass your rigor?
i hope i'm not coming across as aggressive, i genuinely want to know.
what's more, it's not fair to conflate what I say with the rest of montreal, since i'm just a couple years here transplant from ontario
#122

Red_Canadian posted:

sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide

No it wouldn't? Anyway the point is to come up with a credible plan to end capitalism in Canada and Quebec while transfering back land and resources to indigenous peoples commensurate with their desires. That doesn't mean they are going to say "give us every square inch", it likely means viable, sustainable autonomy such that their nations can persist and enjoy equal services and livelihoods, where ceding land to settlers involves just compensation. Reformists have no credible plan at all to achieve any of that. The Liberals themselves can't even fully commit to clean drinking water by 2020.

#123
Weeds legal.
#124
well then I don't really think I'm in opposition at all. Electoral politics can sometimes show the popularity of certain currents, I don't really think they will lead to any lasting elimination of capitalism.
#125
I got the perfect post in. Made red Canadian look like a damn fool. Another win for the "communism forum trickster" Keven.
#126
The "Red" in this case is his face, from embarrassment due to successful tricks.
#127

getfiscal posted:

Red_Canadian posted:
sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide
No it wouldn't? Anyway the point is to come up with a credible plan to end capitalism in Canada and Quebec while transfering back land and resources to indigenous peoples commensurate with their desires. That doesn't mean they are going to say "give us every square inch", it likely means viable, sustainable autonomy such that their nations can persist and enjoy equal services and livelihoods, where ceding land to settlers involves just compensation. Reformists have no credible plan at all to achieve any of that. The Liberals themselves can't even fully commit to clean drinking water by 2020.



I'd take this a step further that without Indigenous self-determination (up to and including succession), socialism will never come about on Turtle Island/ North America. The process of dispossession which subjugates Indigenous nations to the colonizer nations of Canada and the United States is not exactly the same kind of dispossession/proletarianization that workers experience, but it is similar enough that if you implemented "settler socialism" it would basically just be capitalism with socialized profits because the settler state would still be extracting surplus value from indigenous land and peoples

#128
the turtle island occupation isnt actually about independence afaik, its to highlight the need for wider native self-determination
#129

Red_Canadian posted:

i'm not sayin i don't understand that, but what does it mean towards our actions? should we all just move back to europe, which we stole from the neanderthals? does mean trying to improve our situations is merely further colonialism?
sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide, but it don't think it's very likely. it's not like i don't support indigenous actions, but do you think they'd be able to overthrow capitalism without our support? im not deriding their abilities or convictions, merely their numbers.
a hypothetical quebec federal state, with first nations and colonialist soviets on equal basis, would still not pass your rigor?
i hope i'm not coming across as aggressive, i genuinely want to know.
what's more, it's not fair to conflate what I say with the rest of montreal, since i'm just a couple years here transplant from ontario



wth..

#130
i feel like red canadian doesnt have the same shared reference points so someones gonna need to fill him in on this too
#131
ifap red canadian
#132

Urbandale posted:

the turtle island occupation isnt actually about independence afaik, its to highlight the need for wider native self-determination



Self-determination implies the right to independence

#133
who will restock the game trails with fresh posters to be owned? send the tweets
#134
it does, definitely, im just saying they dont literally want independence for turtle island right now is all. that'd be bad.

i guess your post doesnt say that tho, my bad. unless you stealth edited. w/e, i think we're in agreement
#135

Red_Canadian posted:

i hope i'm not coming across as aggressive, i genuinely want to know.



i think you say something like this every single time you post

#136
[account deactivated]
#137

roseweird posted:

Red_Canadian posted:

i hope i'm not coming across as aggressive, i genuinely want to know.

i think you say something like this every single time you post


not exactly, although i post it often enough. i'm just trying to avoid my ignorance coming across as trolling.
perhaps i should put something similar towards that in my sig.

#138
here you go
#139
okay so turning the conversation back to

cars posted:

lower and more radical levels,



not quebec solidaire or like, sinn fein or whatever.. what is the thinking behind disengaging from these areas where leftist and anti-imperialist ideas are heard and considered in greater proportions?? where does that go?

#140
like i'm speaking from a small amount of personal experience here. and it hasn't been my experience that these movements in canada or ireland are monolithically neo-nazi or something.
#141
thanks, although perhaps i'm the butt of a joke. but i appreciate the effort. Hopefully i'm linking it correctly.

to return to topic, that was my basic point. the more local the government, the easier to influence. a state would have it's own army, unlike a red town
#142
dude..
#143
like chill. for just a second please.
#144
please give me thread monitor
#145
monitor my balls
#146

cars posted:

okay so turning the conversation back to

cars posted:
lower and more radical levels,


not quebec solidaire or like, sinn fein or whatever.. what is the thinking behind disengaging from these areas where leftist and anti-imperialist ideas are heard and considered in greater proportions?? where does that go?



The character of the occupation of Belfast/ N. Ireland is different from the character of the Quebec nation within Canada because the Irish are the indigenous population of Ireland, the French are not indigenous to Quebec.

#147
Well, the "settler state within a settler state" thing is true, but you can't use it as a bludgeon to ignore the real oppression that Quebecois faced within Canada and the legitimate grievances they had within federation. You can't point to a founding crime to erase geopolitical realities as if it is a matter of morality instead of political strategy. The point isn't to reconcile all moral quandaries but build a functioning socialist society out of the ruins of the old. I think you are completely correct that indigenous struggles form a core part of that in Canada/Quebec but the reason is not to create Wilsonian nation-states with morally justified legal title to the land, it's to destroy the system of capitalist states and create worker's states.
#148
i disagree. we need a new great upheaval as a final solution to the acadien problem. send the quebecois to louisiana where they belong.
#149

EmanuelaBrolandi posted:

i disagree. we need a new great upheaval as a final solution to the acadien problem. send the quebecois to louisiana where they belong.



ive been making a hoi4 mod where you can do that

#150
damn that pic reminds me of how I miss playing AoI with all the goons back in the day
#151

getfiscal posted:

Well, the "settler state within a settler state" thing is true, but you can't use it as a bludgeon to ignore the real oppression that Quebecois faced within Canada and the legitimate grievances they had within federation. You can't point to a founding crime to erase geopolitical realities as if it is a matter of morality instead of political strategy. The point isn't to reconcile all moral quandaries but build a functioning socialist society out of the ruins of the old. I think you are completely correct that indigenous struggles form a core part of that in Canada/Quebec but the reason is not to create Wilsonian nation-states with morally justified legal title to the land, it's to destroy the system of capitalist states and create worker's states.



readsettlers.org

#152
I don't disagree with what you said but I always feel like you've misrepresented what's going on to secretly make people agree with reformism. just an instinct I've cultivated over my many years posting here.
#153
im not really sure what youre claiming is reformist tbh - getfiscal is talking about social relations
#154

Urbandale posted:

im not really sure what youre claiming is reformist tbh - getfiscal is talking about social relations

Baby Huey is saying that he is secretly reformist and agrees more with when I explain reformist logic than when I call for socialist revolution. But we don't judge him.

#155

getfiscal posted:

Well, the "settler state within a settler state" thing is true, but you can't use it as a bludgeon to ignore the real oppression that Quebecois faced within Canada and the legitimate grievances they had within federation. You can't point to a founding crime to erase geopolitical realities as if it is a matter of morality instead of political strategy. The point isn't to reconcile all moral quandaries but build a functioning socialist society out of the ruins of the old. I think you are completely correct that indigenous struggles form a core part of that in Canada/Quebec but the reason is not to create Wilsonian nation-states with morally justified legal title to the land, it's to destroy the system of capitalist states and create worker's states.



Had. Past-tense. I don't see any need to engage in Québécois nationalism when they've successfully integrated into Canadian imperialism. I'm pro-bilingualism and all that but I don't see it as a terrain of revolutionary politics.

The indigenous question isn't one of rectifying moral wrongs or assauging white guilt, the ongoing dispossession and quiet genocide of indigenous people is one of the key pillars of Canadian and American capital. If you don't engage with it as a national liberation struggle you're leaving the bedrock of Capitalism intact. So much for your workers state.

#156
You willfully misread everything I said. User loses posting privileges for 6 hours.
#157
Since Getfiscal and I seem to be talking past each other and this thread was supposed to be about the Philippines, here's a sick minidoc about fulltime NPA fighters:

#158
thts cool that in the philippines peoples last names are their preferred pronouns
#159

Red_Canadian posted:

i'm not sayin i don't understand that, but what does it mean towards our actions? should we all just move back to europe, which we stole from the neanderthals? does mean trying to improve our situations is merely further colonialism? sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide,



The only hope is for North America to embrace its status as a creole cultural zone and leave petty racial grievances behind, which will help entrench emancipatory politics and ease the case for American socialism. All of the Americas are miscegenated post-revolutionary democratic states where the concept of "nations of blood" holds no value, and the US and Canada need to wake up to the fact.

The main reason why Latin Americans are still so attached to leftist politics unlike the rest of the world is that there is little room for blood grievances and partitioning along ethnic lines to arise in Latin America since everyone basically accepts the multiracial creole status of their culture and history, even if racist biases still persist in institutions and wealth distribution (and light racial jokes/teasing which are nothing compared to actual Anglo-European racism or the Middle East, Balkans).

#160

Red_Canadian posted:

i'm not sayin i don't understand that, but what does it mean towards our actions? should we all just move back to europe, which we stole from the neanderthals? does mean trying to improve our situations is merely further colonialism?
sure, the best thing would be if everyone of descent other than first nations committed suicide, but it don't think it's very likely. it's not like i don't support indigenous actions, but do you think they'd be able to overthrow capitalism without our support? im not deriding their abilities or convictions, merely their numbers.


just an observation: leaving aside the flippant tone (which i don't think is worth reading much into), the way you talk about the First Nations of your land indicates you have little to do with them, or at least that any involvement you have is peripheral to your political life. something you might want to reflect on.