#41
[account deactivated]
#42
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maybe its not a contradiction but it seems aligned with general propaganda to paint escaped prisoners as both dangerous and yet simultaneously a small enough minority of the "movement" proper to be considered an aesthetic diversion or whatever the author's point is
#43
UNUSUALY COOL
Post rating: ~
i support defending isis against meddling by the united states and promise to whisk away with both hands the tiny puff of smoke that will appear in its place when that ends
#44
[account deactivated]
#45
Post rating: +

babyhueypnewton posted:

MarianneSadd posted:
It's worth noting that one of the Jacofbin editors quit because of this piece.


Do you know anything more about this? I'm curious what goes on behind the scenes at Jacofbin



Max Ajl quit over the interview with Gilbert Achcar, which Sunkara ran without allowing him to veto (against their usual editorial process)

#46
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#47
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thanks
#48
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On the topic of propaganda, 'the Syria campaign' is pulling out all the stops on social media
#49
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#50
Online
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Very good post, especially the first half which I fully agree with. It's incredibly frustrating to see people get basic objective facts completely backward. I'm not sure totally I agree with the second half, as there's truly been a massive long-term anti-Assad propaganda campaign, and from there, all it took was one news report: "Assad bombs hospital in Aleppo." And there it is, all those people predisposed to think Assad is "killing his own people," killing people who are entirely against him and who really are not asking for much, just democracy... well, the Aleppo narrative writes itself in all their heads right from there, without any more information (or disinformation) needed. This is the paydirt they're getting after years of investment in this anti-Assad propaganda campaign.
#51
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +++++

Ufuk_Surekli posted:

I suppose the question is - as far as this idea of "narrative struggle" is concerned - if some gap-year jihad tourists sitting in an internet cafe in Idlib can generate this poisonous Social Media campaign on a shoestring in order to buy Jahbat Al-Nusra the support of western leftists, can't principled anti-imperialists around the world with similar skillsets organise themselves to do the precise opposite, using the same unsavoury "PR"-style methods, with a reasonable chance of success? With a bit of careful planning, it's not a million miles away to imagine an actual convincing "10 Shocking Reasons to Support the Secular Government in Aleppo" campaign having the same degree of penetration, with fairly low-intensity but shrewd and slickly-designed social media/internet work being carried out by a few dedicated militants.

That is not forthcoming though. There doesn't seem to be any such organisation. I've seen the Social Media presence of the anti-imperialist parties I mentioned in my earlier post. It's shit, frankly. They are trying, bless them, but behind the single neglected facebook page of each communist party is a gaggle of well-meaning, but completely disorganised and undisciplined volunteers. They are not about to run a massive, on-message twitter campaign about Syria which gets taken up by thousands of clueless non-supporters and makes Mark Zuckerburg turn his Facebook profile picture red or whatever facile symbolic goal conceals the real objective (the mass manipulation of people's beliefs and expectations about Syria). By contrast, it seems like Jahbat Al-Nusra and chums have got that process nailed.

I think you're underestimating the complicity of the media itself in these lies. Communists know how to use Twitter just fine, but they can't get an article onto BuzzFeed or the Facebook news feed. Even if you could muster enough Commie Twitters to spam a hashtag up into One Direction fandom territory, it doesn't matter because the message can't reverberate and spread.

You can't think of "social media" as "media produced socially" (ie. by people). It is "media for social control." You can't wield social media because your message does not propagate, because only people who propagate the correct messages become influential to the system. The doxxing of one of our ex-users was not done by crazy, random people - although that is also possible, and also something the reactionaries can use that the Left can't - it was done by a senior editor at BuzzFeed, a VICE writer, and their friends in real life. Anyone who would use those positions to push an anti-establishment narrative would never have made it to those positions.

The only thing social media can do to propagate your message is to propagate it to the people who are already interested in hearing it - and virtually nobody else. Social media is successful at undermining Left political activity because it can trick people into thinking they are making political gains or reaching a larger audience.

Edited by swampman ()

#52
Post rating: +
also it's much easier to propagate a narrative that already conforms to the dominant ideology than one which critiques and questions it, which is why anti-assad messages conducive to the idea of a liberal humanitarian intervention gain so much more immediate traction than ones that are anti-imperialist. kony2012.
#53
Post rating: +

swampman posted:

You can't think of "social media" as "media produced socially" (ie. by people). It is "media for social control."


This is an excellent way of expressing the problem.

Nonetheless I can see cracks in the system which allow for subversive uses of 'social media'. All rely utterly on maintaining a consistent position, a consistent approach - I of course refer to The Immortal Science. Because over time it becomes clear to at least some casual observers that there is a logical consistency in the ML approach that is lacking in other approaches, and if they spend time in the social media circles of the nebulous 'left', some eventually feel curious enough to engage on whatever doubts they have about ML, which are myths and generally easy to debunk to genuine parties. Having said all of that, I think the ability to recruit is probably limited to spaces like Facebook, where it is possible for MLs to gain the attention of and then engage in actual discussion with casual leftists, whereas Twitter seems designed to preclude genuine discussion of anything at all.

The bigger picture though is that it is necessary to construct spaces outside social media which can appeal to 'baby communists' who are looking for accessible information and discussion, but which can still be tightly controlled by comrades with a correct perspective and common purpose. I'm thinking now of something like a combined ML wikipedia(straight up reference resource)/knowledgebase(FAQ with tldr answers that refer back to the wiki for more info)/stackexchange(place to actually ask questions which can then be referred to knowledgebase if already answered, or new answers offered by registered community members).

I have more thoughts on that but I just wanted to get the basic idea off my chest for now.

#54
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swampman posted:

You can't think of "social media" as "media produced socially" (ie. by people). It is "media for social control."



This is good shit

#55
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You can set the Reichstag on fire but what about the coneczone???
#56
Post rating: +
As far as I can tell the Aleppo is burning hash tag and getting people to change their profile blood red comes from the struts campaign, which is created and financed by a Syrian expat billionaire in the UK, and the actual media campaign and content is done by a progressive ngo style pr company.

These are the guys who invented the Assad kills 95%of civilians in the war (with quarterly info graphics to prove it) if you ever see that cited

The Syria campaign was created around the same time by roughly the same people (I think they share the same PR firm) as the white helmets.
I guess it makes sense that the Syria campaign would link with alqaida media team in the same way the white helmets link with their fighters.

I get the sense this social media push was prepped beforehand waiting for an event to activate it.
It follows the same pattern and relationship to reality as the Assad funds Isis with oil storyline; an unofficial unapproved makeshift MSF hospital in alqaida territory getting bombed by someone was what kicked it off.
The Assad regime are monsters because of this, despite the rebel history of destroying real hospitals and murdering the people inside... The government builds a massive developed and free health system for decades in order to bomb it because they are so bloodthirsty, is the underlying logic

It's common to call pointing this out Putin funded propaganda, but even with small money which we'd almost never have the anti imperialist messaging on social media is obviously limited
#57
[account deactivated]
#58
ive gender
Post rating: +
Since we're on the topic, the UK has been devoting more and more resources into the purely propagandist struggle in Syria.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/03/how-britain-funds-the-propaganda-war-against-isis-in-syria?CMP=share_btn_tw

#59
Post rating: +
http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/05/03/syria-aleppoisburning-campaign-created-by-us-and-nato-to-facilitate-a-no-bomb-zone/

https://thewallwillfall.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/aleppo-us-nato-false-flags-lies-and-propaganda/

http://vngiapaganda.tumblr.com/post/143822417974/some-notes-on-the-circuits-of-imperialism
#60
Post rating: ~
https://www.facebook.com/events/645975785553048/

The 'world wide red protest'

From every corner of the planet, we are marching to save the city of Aleppo. Its civilians, rescue workers and doctors are being killed by the dozens in the regime's fierce airstrikes. Join us and let's protest in every country of the world.

Follow us on Twitter @AleppoIsBurning
Facebook: Syria Pressure Advocacy Group SPAG
Email: SyriaPressureAdvocacyGroup@gmail.com

1) The following is a list of events organised worldwide:

(LIST IS BEING UPDATED)
#61
[account deactivated]
#62
Post rating: +
for once i was encouraged by social media discussion as there are many disparate individuals coming to the same conclusion and talking about self organising a counter protest to this ngo imperialism
#63
[account deactivated]
#64
Post rating: +
swampman's postmortem thread had me poking around d&d again and i made the mistake of peeking through the middle east thread. speaking of control & disinfo on syria in social media, hoo boy.

it seems there was actually one user attempting to argue against the state dept narrative. all responses to them consisted of insults, accusations ("paid troll"), and either ignore-listing or urging others to do so. there's not a single good-faith reply i could find; just a perfectly reactionary imperial echo chamber.

ultimately, for voicing the contrary opinion that Self-Determination Is Good, brown moses banned them. twice.

in better news, though, th

Edited by Constantignoble ()

#65
Post rating: +
Alqaida occupation of Aleppo is a modern day Paris commune so say trots

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154268382177376&id=250874162375
#66
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#67
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Ufuk_Surekli posted:

how the fuck to members of socialist and revolutionary parties even arrive at a view like this?



I think you missed the "trot" qualifier there mate.

#68
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xipe posted:

Alqaida occupation of Aleppo is a modern day Paris commune so say trots

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154268382177376&id=250874162375



wow it really does say that. it's amazing how malleable capitalism is and how inflexible imperialism is, it can even accommodate socialist groups in the acceptable discourse as long as they completely support NATO propaganda.

#69
Post rating: ~
trots support hitlerite rebels against weimar regime
#70
Post rating: +

Constantignoble posted:

swampman's postmortem thread had me poking around d&d again and i made the mistake of peeking through the middle east thread. speaking of control & disinfo on syria in social media, hoo boy.

it seems there was actually one user attempting to argue against the state dept narrative. all responses to them consisted of insults, accusations ("paid troll"), and either ignore-listing or urging others to do so. there's not a single good-faith reply i could find; just a perfectly reactionary imperial echo chamber.

ultimately, for voicing the contrary opinion that Self-Determination Is Good, brown moses banned them. twice.

in better news, though, th



i looked at some of his posts and found former LF superstar Thug Lessons posting imperialism apologia. Guess he couldn't handle the Rhizzone coming to a rational anti-imperialist line and had to go back to trolling D&D like it's 2006.

#71
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#72
Post rating: +
first imagine youre a fucking idiot

now create a simple black and white model for communism - the soviet union which was totalitarian and a degenerate workers state and bad, and the catalonian anarchists who were good and cool and wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for stalin!!

ISIS are more like the catalonians, they're disorganized, accept foreign volunteers, and are getting their asses kicked, so trots feel compelled to support them.
#73
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At least anarchists are consistent (ly ineffective outside of their tiny enclaves), trots just wish it was them being players.

They are so totally ineffectual tho wonder if ignoring them add much as possible isn't the best course
#74
Post rating: ~

catchphrase
#75
[account deactivated]
#76
Post rating: +

Scrree posted:

first imagine youre a fucking idiot

now create a simple black and white model for communism - the soviet union which was totalitarian and a degenerate workers state and bad, and the catalonian anarchists who were good and cool and wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for stalin!!

ISIS are more like the catalonians, they're disorganized, accept foreign volunteers, and are getting their asses kicked, so trots feel compelled to support them.



we had a good post earlier about how ideas are paradigmatic and the real way to change someone's beliefs is to shatter their paradigm. usually by making them realize they know nothing and everything they think they know is a lie so that statements like "Stalin did nothing wrong" seem equally possible as everything you believed before.

trotskyism, left communism, anarchism, etc which in the first world are all identical (or at least come from the same pathology) are the result of not breaking with the paradigms of liberalism, imperialism, and capitalism. every single piece of future information for them has to be deconstructed since they start with what they "know" which is what capitalism knows and then fit their worldview around that. we are the opposite, if you go back to the syria and libya threads here everyone is like "hmm this seems like imperialism" and then makes a bunch of predictions which turned out to be true. but whats important is that how we 'know' things is fundamentally different than them and until a trot admits "I don't really know anything about the USSR, everything I think I know is through crappy second hand sources, imperialist propaganda, passively acquired information through a variety of informal sources and personal experiences, and gut feelings based on my own privileged 21st century existence" then Aleppo will be the Pars Commune.

of course their existence as self-identified socialists is odd instead of just being normal liberals but they are such a small minority they are basically just first world liberals that somehow glitched out in the inevitable errors of human reproduction.

#77
Post rating: +

babyhueypnewton posted:

i looked at some of his posts and found former LF superstar Thug Lessons posting imperialism apologia. Guess he couldn't handle the Rhizzone coming to a rational anti-imperialist line and had to go back to trolling D&D like it's 2006.



iirc the last time he posted here it was just a bunch of concern trolling about how hey maybe gaddafi and assad are bad how can u guys really support them? anti-imperialism? pft. then he left

#78
[account deactivated]
#79
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don't most of those people support the kurdish forces? i mean, i think it's fair to give most of them more credit then, "they're all isis supporters!" there's some idiots supporting every political ideology.
#80
Post rating: +

Red_Canadian posted:

i mean, i think it's fair to give most of them more credit





edit: user was not banned for this expression of support for rapists, murderers and war criminals