#561
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just like we have no choice but to vote for Biden, right?
#562
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vimingok posted:

That is substantially distant from what you're trying to push, which is that they actively wanted liberalisation and (therefore) enthusiastically adopted it tout court once enacted. The CPIM's 90s neoliberal turn wasn't part of a grand scheme that they laid in the 70s "because slippery slope of reformism".


they had an explicit and reasoned basis behind enacting these policies. they openly agreed with the motivating idea behind neoliberal reforms, that the freedom of foreign industrial interests to pursue land acquisition and independently establish private enterprise was a necessary plank of industrial development and reform. this is absolutely, categorically an ideological shift and a defence of neoliberalism. no, they weren't secretly neoliberalism before neoliberalism existed -- but this is the same ideological shift social reformist parties the world over experienced, the contradictions and inadequacy of populist left-keynesianism shored itself up in an embrace of neoliberal principles

i don't even know where to start with your completely bizarre assertion that the maoist movement is so inscrutable and unknowable. conducting propaganda is a fundamental part of conducting the people's war, not some kind of side hustle! and yes, obviously it is a broad and at time diffuse movement, but it is also very constituted by a number of explicit political parties, the cpi(maoist) being by far the largest and most significant. which is structured exactly like a revolutionary party anywhere else in the world -- it has points of unity, coordination committees, regular reports and propaganda efforts. these are organised, cohesive and centralised marxist-leninist parties. that the military efforts that are explicitly and directly executed under the authority of these parties are not constitutive of their party platforms is such a ridiculous idea

your fixation on a single collection of essays by a single activist -- as essential as scripting the change is -- is absurd. it's a collection of essays on particular topics developed through gandhy's experience as an activist and the broader questions of the women's movement, it is not tasked with anything close to being a comprehensive illustration of the general platform of the maoist movement or its history. but even in her essay of the development the revolutionary women's movement in india she does explicitly refer to mazumdar singularly as leader of the revolt at naxalbari

the idea that this one book is the skeleton key to figuring out the general line and perspective of the maoist movement, when it is not even concerned with that, while immediately dismissing the platforms and statements these parties explicitly promote and publish is ridiculous. i'm just exasperated at this point, this is such a stupid and trivially false argument

that you think i believe maoists pledge eternal fealty to everything mazumdar wrote is absurd -- i have repeatedly talked about how certain aspects of his legacy were repeatedly criticised, and those criticisms contributed to the development and strengthening of the movement. but it is unquestionable that his years of tireless contributions and leadership of the revolutionary struggle dwarfed the degeneration and collapse of his later efforts. this is why he continues to be remembered as a forefather and teacher by current maoists, even though they remain critical of aspects of his work, a nuance you don't seem capable of grasping

i have no idea about what your gesturing toward d.v. rao is supposed to indicate. the apcccr was a minor group that was expelled from mazumdar's aicccr, and rao went on to form a tiny microparty. what relevance is a minor deviation from the broader coordinating committee that the maoist movement owes its origin to supposed to have?

vimingok posted:

Of course they're targeting prisons and armouries in or around their base areas. That's what I just fucking said! How is that an offensive war against the entire bourgeois state apparatus? They are killing or trying to kill local politicians who run on anti-naxal agendas, not Modi or the Gandhis.


they are only 'in and around' their base areas if you're expanding base areas to mean the entire state and administrative regions they operate in, which is absurd. no, they're not immediately targeting the centre at its heart, that's how ppw works! it is a revolutionary war which has the defeat of the entire state apparatus as its end, while tactical operations begin at the locally constrained. even mazumdar's annihilation line had peasant areas as its centre of attention. by this convoluted metric no effort at people's war could ever be considered an offensive against the bourgeois state

vimingok posted:

Why are you lying? I said the CPIM governments' peaceful elimination of feudal-colonial remnants from the British era and redistribution of land to millions of sharecroppers is objectively preferable specifically to Mazumdar's misguided adventurism which caused thousands of deaths. I'm very pointedly not saying that it is preferable to all guerilla adventurism from decades ago.


you can't isolate away the blood shed in the maintenance of reform from its fruits. mazumdar's 'misguided adventurism' is incomparable to the mass rape, torture and execution of the desperate landless, lower caste and tribal victims of brutal counterinsurgency the reformist parties have either directly led or at best been complicit to. See swampman's posts for more.

i'm done arguing these points -- your refusal to even engage in the literature produced by the revolutionary movement and belief you can instead simply intuitively grasp their motives in whatever way suits your argument is a complete dead end. the rest is just hair splitting i don't care about or apologia for reformism that makes me freaking mad.

Edited by blinkandwheeze ()

#563
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vimingok posted:

lo posted:

vimingok posted:

Like I said the power and scope of state governments are de facto at the pleasure of the centre/ruling party. Any plans the CPIM governments had would require funds they would have to raise independently, in their own relatively small and poor states. They couldn't force businesses or investors to operate on their terms, couldn't regulate prices, interest rates and duties, print currency, pass laws, receive aid from sympathetic foreign countries (the ostensibly sympathetic one had collapsed and was allied with the comprador state anyway) etc etc. What would resistance have looked like according to you?

you just pointed out that they could have begun 'the long, arduous work of organising a committed mass base', but they didn't and became neoliberals instead. so there was a choice open to them, one that they didn't take.

They had no choice as state governments, e.g. giving a corporation what it wants to get it to invest in industry in their states instead of forcing it to come and operate on their terms. The correct choice would also mean lack of power, and I've explained why they're guilty of not choosing that.



That's the whole point... Why do you think Lenin said we cannot use the state apparatus and have to overthrow it? Your argument seems to be that because the Maoists are relatively isolated, that choice is also doomed so we might as well choose reformism which is doomed in its own way. But the difficulty of making revolution does not mean it is the same as reformism which cannot make revolution by definition, they are fundamentally different. A revolutionary perspective can lead to isolation at a time when reformism is predominant or when reformism turns to revolutionaries for "help" in defeating fascism. But that's what it means to be a revolutionary and participate in a Marxist-Leninist party. Without revolutionary theory there cannot be a revolutionary movement. I started the discussion of India because it's more interesting than Joe freaking Biden but you're still arguing a position which shows no familiarity with Marx or Lenin and the flaws in your logic are the same no matter the topic of discussion so I have to agree with BnW that this has exhausted itself.

#564
[account deactivated]
#565
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I'm just going to post about Joe Biden, in this thread brought to you by Biden 2020 (the billionaires)

Biden is a notorious flapjaw. His vanity deludes him into believing that every word that drops from his mouth is minted in the golden currency of Pericles. Vanity is the most conspicuous characteristic of US Senators en bloc , nourished by deferential acolytes and often expressed in loutish sexual advances to staffers, interns and the like. On more than one occasion CounterPunch’s editors have listened to vivid accounts by the recipient of just such advances, this staffer of another senator being accosted by Biden in the well of the senate in the week immediately following his first wife’s fatal car accident.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2008/08/23/quot-change-quot-quot-hope-quot-why-they-must-be-talking-about-joe-biden/

#566
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toyot posted:

fwiw foreign language press just re-released http://flpress.storenvy.com/products/30186022-historic-eight-documents-charu-mazumdar


lol a while ago i bought some books there and the transaction got blocked ebcause it contains some forbidden words, i see now they changed the titles in their store to like "Fed4i Guer1llas speak on 4rmed Struggle in Ir4n"

#567
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lenochodek posted:

toyot posted:

fwiw foreign language press just re-released http://flpress.storenvy.com/products/30186022-historic-eight-documents-charu-mazumdar

lol a while ago i bought some books there and the transaction got blocked ebcause it contains some forbidden words, i see now they changed the titles in their store to like "Fed4i Guer1llas speak on 4rmed Struggle in Ir4n"



PayPal really doesn’t like the word Iran in anything they do

#568
Dont Mess With Sucess
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via getfiscal:
#569
UNUSUALY COOL
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had a dream that I found the secret forum of presidential candidates. all the candidates were there from every party, even the tiny third parties, and it was just one thread where everyone was posting all-lowercase one-line irony jokes about how excited they were to lose, like “lets lose lol” and “cant wait to lose”. Every few posts there was an ad for a car that was shaped like a medieval castle, and it was like an outdoors play set for kids where they could pretend it was a castle as you drove around. the towers had fake steering wheels in them so your kids could sit in the towers and pretend they were driving the car
#570
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burritostan posted:

just like we have no choice but to vote for Biden, right?


#571
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i just had the displeasure of seeing some of the discussion about tara reade on twitter, and by discussion i mean rabid democrat dogpiling on a sexual assault victim for the crime of having been assaulted by their guy. it's all 'me too' and 'believe women' until biden is unmasked, then it's "AHA! she used the indefinite article instead of the definite article in this old interview! that lying piece of shit! as a real and genuine survivor myself i hope she fucking dies!! #istandwithjoe (gif of a black person being sassy about lying whites even though poster is white)"
#572
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I can confirm beyond a shred of a doubt that Jesse Ventura has filed to run for the Green Party nomination. Have multiple sources on that one, very close to him. He's running.
#573
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Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:


I've seen her called a Putin-lovin' Russian agent, and people pulling up the porn novels her dad wrote as evidence she's lying. Mostly by the obviously astroturfed accounts of paid demokrat propagandists, but there's at least a few real people liking and sharing

#574
UNUSUALY COOL
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colddays posted:

there's at least a few real people liking and sharing



and isn't that what life is all about

#575
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Parenti posted:

I can confirm beyond a shred of a doubt that Jesse Ventura has filed to run for the Green Party nomination. Have multiple sources on that one, very close to him. He's running.


whoops

#576
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rest in peace jesse ventura
#577
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finally a candidate running on the “Epstein didn’t kill himself” platform
#578
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#579
YUNG JIRO AKA SHOWA STUNNA AKA
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#580
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#581
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#582
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#583
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joe's on a roll

#584
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what an unfortunate name
#585
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lol that to white twitter charlamagne is simply 'a black person'
#586
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Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

lol that to white twitter charlamagne is simply 'a black person'


i thought he was emperor of the franks

#587
UNUSUALY COOL
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effectuating the shit out of some positive fucking outcomes!!
#588
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lo posted:

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

lol that to white twitter charlamagne is simply 'a black person'

i thought he was emperor of the franks


just try talking to white folks about pepin the short and the end of the merovingians... slack jaws and glazed eyes!

#589
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waspepin
#590
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88888 posted:

lo posted:

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

lol that to white twitter charlamagne is simply 'a black person'

i thought he was emperor of the franks

just try talking to white folks about pepin the short and the end of the merovingians... slack jaws and glazed eyes!



I mean white people love Pepin’s dad Charles Martel

#591
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dimashq posted:

88888 posted:

lo posted:

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

lol that to white twitter charlamagne is simply 'a black person'

i thought he was emperor of the franks

just try talking to white folks about pepin the short and the end of the merovingians... slack jaws and glazed eyes!

I mean white people love Pepin’s dad Charles Martel


mario just wouldn't be mario without him

#592
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inspired by the speedrunning community, the new cutting edge democrat strategy is to run a campaign so terrible it will rollover backwards into infinite votes before the polls even open. they'll have wallhacked into the whitehouse by august
#593
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if you have a problem figuring out if you're for biden or trump, you ain't red

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/bidens-crisis-presidency-and-potential-for-transformative-change/
#594
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pogfan1996 posted:

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/bidens-crisis-presidency-and-potential-for-transformative-change/



#595
lies half the time
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im so red im blue, thank you cpusa
#596
[account deactivated]
#597
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at this point, there is no difference between the CPUSA today and in 1944 when they dissolved to be a lobbyist group for the democratic party
#598
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It's bitterly ironic that the time between the Dems forcing a Biden nomination on the grounds that the people aren't ready for anything more radical, and Mitt Romney proclaiming Black Lives Matter, turned out to be just a handful of weeks.
#599
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pogfan1996 posted:

at this point, there is no difference between the CPUSA today and in 1944 when they dissolved to be a lobbyist group for the democratic party


I dunno. They have a lot fewer members today than in 1944.

#600
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I think there might be something to this social fascism theory folks