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discipline posted:

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discipline posted:
I'm not going to laugh at you that you're wrong I'm just going to continue to feel bad that so-called socialists are actually patriotic americans who are always willing to give uncle sam the benefit of the doubt while millions of children are screaming and dying

What do millions of screaming dying children have to do with the hypothetical US mercenary army

We've given you evidence and precedence and you're all well wait here, hang on a second, hold your horses, I want to hear what General Powell is saying on TV about uranium, he is at the United Nations and is a very important man

I don't care about the media or General Powell, I care about evidence. There's evidence that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and there's evidence that the Bush administration deliberately lied about it. Otoh there's no evidence that AIDS is a man-made plague (even though the US isn't above doing something like that) so I'm not going to believe that.

but we've just given probably the best evidence you could ever get at the time of something like this going on - you think a company like stratfor just says that stuff for funsies?

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Crow posted:

Wheres the evidence *ignores evidence* Wheres the evidence *passively smears around war propaganda* WHers the evidence *~thinks back fondly on nazi grandpa and asks u to do the same~*

I'm not ignoring your evidence, you produced one source for one part of a much larger claim.

why is there such a big problem with the argument "we know how the US works in places like this because of guatemala/nicaragua/el salvador/whatever. so we assume they're working like this. and look, some leaked information has come out indicating that at least one very important piece of that picture is true. so given the history, it's probably not entirely stupid to work with the hypothesis that this other stuff is going on"

jools posted:

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Crow posted:

I dunno, i just feel like there's no evidence to suggest that this is the MO of my brave fatherland <<goosesteps over cartoonishly large graveyard>>

This isn't about MOs, of course the US is capable of anything. But if you're saying the US is coordinating foreign intervention in Syria in a way that amounts to invasion you're going to have to prove it, it's not sufficient to say the US so they must be doing the worst thing possible.

why is "invasion" your sine qua non? why not "special forces training opposition groups" or "sending arms" or any number of things? i think it's entirely reasonable to react like this to any exercise of US power you can care to think of tbh, given the massive bloody history of it all.

like if you're admitting that you'd support assad (against america) if he was invaded (presumably to achieve the same objectives that the US are attempting to or are actually achieving right now - their content aside), then why is that your red line, rather than anything else? i honestly don't understand not really caring at all about anything the US is doing because it's CIA rats and special forces snakes, not some marine in a chopper yelling "GET SOME" and mowing down kids etc

Invasion isn't some arbitrary line, it's the point where the struggle in Syria transforms from a civil war with opposing powers supplying opposing sides is transformed into a US war for occupation and domination of Syria. It's also kind of bizarre that you're acting like it's all just relative, any sort of support will do, but historical active military involvement is the "red line" so to speak - if supplying weapons and training constituted an act of war we'd have had a nuclear war between the US and USSR over Vietnam.

Also it's definitely not that I don't care, I'm opposed to whatever US intervention is going on in Syria, and for that matter Saudi intervention and Iranian intervention and Russian intervention. The critical issue here is at what point this becomes an imperialist war against Syria by the US.

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if supplying weapons and training constituted an act of war we'd have had a nuclear war between the US and USSR over Vietnam.

like here, this is... hmmmm...... it's not really considering the practicalities, whatsoever. if it had been some shitty insignificant country supplying arms or material support or whatever, they'd have been squashed like a bug.

oh wait, cambodia lol

jools posted:

why is there such a big problem with the argument "we know how the US works in places like this because of guatemala/nicaragua/el salvador/whatever. so we assume they're working like this. and look, some leaked information has come out indicating that at least one very important piece of that picture is true. so given the history, it's probably not entirely stupid to work with the hypothesis that this other stuff is going on"

Aren't you recognizing the ideological gloss here though? I'm still not sure exactly what sort of intervention you're alleging (given those references I guess a covert terrorist war?) but it doesn't follow at all from the evidence we have that this must be, or probably is, occurring, just that it's possible. It's the same as the Obama people who immediately agreed Syria must have been behind the chemical attacks, the only way we can actually judge these things is on the basis of solid evidence not what we assume they must be doing based on their character or whatever.

Syria Opposition Chooses US Technocrat to Lead RevolutionA Syrian-American gave up Texas career to manage humanitarian aid in war-torn homeland. As prime minister, he will build shadow government in war zone.


The newly elected leader of Syria’s political opposition is a naturalized U.S. citizen who gave up a career in business and Internet technology in Texas to join an uprising to oust President Bashar al-Assad from power in Damascus.

Ghassan Hitto, 50, moved to Turkey last year. When the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces was created five months ago in Doha, he joined forces with democracy advocate and coalition co-chair, Suhair Atassi, who presides over the Coalition’s Aid Coordination Unit (ACU).

Together, they pushed for coordinated delivery of humanitarian aid from the United States and other members of the Friends of the People of Syria group to thousands of Syrians in rebel-held areas.

Hitto was narrowly elected interim prime minister with 35 votes in the Coalition’s general assembly late Monday. His nearest competitor was a former Syrian minister of agriculture who got 32 votes.

The opposition Coalition charged him to set up a provisional government inside Syria even as the battles with government forces grow more violent by the day. After being elected, Hitto ruled out any negotiations with the Assad government in Damascus.

Hitto is expected to appoint a cabinet – subject to the approval of the Coalition – for a provisional government that will extend emergency relief services and financial support to civic councils that have sprung up in rebel-held communities. The first priorities are to restore electricity, water, sanitation services and basic police and court systems.

How Hitto became prime minister


Hitto grew up in Damascus and moved to the United States to attend college. He is of Kurdish descent. His 25-year-old son, Obaida, left the family home last June to join Syria’s revolution and produce videos and photographs for opposition media services during fierce fighting in the eastern city of Deir Azzour.

“Obaida, bless his heart, made up his mind,” Hitto told the New York Times in October. A short time later, he decided to join his son in working for the Syrian opposition.

In Turkey, where the Syrian opposition has based much of its field and administrative operations, the senior Hitto gained respect among anti-Assad officials for facilitating a Joint Rapid Assessment in North Syria survey with the U.S. Office of Disaster Assistance, the United Kingdom’s Department of International Development and others.

The assessment revealed far greater assistance needs than the U.N. expected. Hitto’s agency identified more than 3.4 million Syrians in dire need of assistance in parts of the six northern and eastern provinces.

Hitto’s unit has worked closely with the U.S. government and its several non-government humanitarian services contractors to meet needs in Syria’s rebel-held areas. The Aid Coordination Unit is expected to help allocate future funding, including $63 million in U.S. assistance expected to arrive shortly.

"The Assad regime and his forces, they have been bombing the infrastructure with intent"
Syria interim prime minister, Ghassan Hitto

Estimating the need, blaming Assad

In a recent interview with Voice of America, Hitto spoke of humanitarian needs on both sides of the war. He blamed the Assad government, however, for causing most of the suffering.

"The Assad regime and his forces, they have been bombing the infrastructure with intent” and are “destroying power, water, sanitation, refuse collection and public health services “in any of the cities that are under attack,” Hitto said.

“We are coming into a summer now where there are cities that have been filled with trash …,” he said. “We are concerned about diseases being spread in the coming months …”

Hitto also cited a U.N. estimate that just over 10 percent of the humanitarian needs in Syria are being met.

“I think to cover one year of basic relief and basic necessities, we’re talking about three to five billion dollars.”

Pushing the Security Council

“The issue is there isn’t enough aid to make the impact we would all like to see,” Hitto said. “Right now the amount of aid that is going to the Syrian people doesn’t satisfy the current need of the Syrian people. It doesn’t even come close.”

The United Nations is hampered in its aid projects, Hitto said, because it can operate only in areas under government control.

"I think to cover one year of basic relief and basic necessities, we’re talking about three to five billion dollars"
Syria interim prime minister, Ghassan Hitto

“Today there isn’t a cross-border operation where the United Nations is able to operate from all borders,” he said. “We’re asking the international community to push the U.N. and the Security Council to establish a cross-border operation which requires an agreement with the regime.”

“I don’t know if permission from Bashar al-Assad is required here,” he said, but “whether Bashar al-Assad agrees to the cross-border operations or not, you are looking at half of the population of the north that needs aid and this aid is not coming through.

“And we are not going to wait, the war will not wait until Bashar Al-Assad says it’s okay,” Hitto said.

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They're "invading" the country with dollar bills and UN resolution. This is a totally fair characterization.

yeah and special forces and mercenaries that are selling off Syrian factories to NATO partners and leveling economic blockades (which is considered by the US military as warfare) outside and within the country. gee fuckin whiz