"I never had a son," or, "civilization is crumbling"




It took Martin Scorsese almost three decades to make "Gangs of New York" (2002), but that means that it had plenty of time to incubate. He wanted it so badly, and what sprang forth was nearly a mile of set built in Rome, recreating from an ancient American civilization once located in Lower Manhattan. And is there any better story to explain America than a story located in the notorious Five Points neighborhood? When we think of quintessential American films, maybe we think about westerns or settler projects, maybe vampy detectives in classic meccas, perhaps something in space or most likely, something set in wartime. While many of early american settlers are as the poor and dejected, they are generally depicted as hard workers, visionaries, and selfless noble whites. But this is not only a gendered and racist depiction, but also dishonest at heart. We are not bright and shining new humans, we are deeply stained in blood and terror.



As many Americans with a grasp on family history understand, the ideal portrayed in cinema is not the way of America in the early days of capitalism. This is not history. My grandfather's first memory was as a boy standing in someone's clapboard living room over a bloated and blackened corpse, an unfortunate fished out of the mines and dressed up in whatever tatters his family could afford, stuffed into a too-small handmade casket. Rifles and riots, strikes and lynchings- this is the American story. Slime and monsters. And thank God Scorsese doesn't shy away from it. Gangs of New York is as gritty and filthy as it gets and you can see it in the teeth, fingernails, and matted hair of all yesterday's heroes. We can see the purpose in Scorsese hanging on to this dream for 30 years, as the landscape and music is as rich as it is deep. I'm not ashamed to admit I've seen this film probably twelve times and I notice something new with each and every viewing. The accents, costumes, and colloquialisms are incredibly vivid and true to history. As a period piece this stands alone as a great work of art, but this is not the greatest beauty to be found in Gangs of New York.

Oh, you got a murderous rage in you and I like it. It's life, boiling up inside you, it's good.



Instead we have a family story: two fathers and a son. An odd couple, the "native" protestant and his Irish priest, both warring gang lords who spawn a little boy together in loving and bloody battle. The little boy, to grow up as Amsterdam (Leonardo DiCaprio) swears revenge when he sees his father fall at the hands of the xenophobic William Cutting (Daniel Day Lewis). What follows is, to borrow a line from the film, "bloody Shakesperian" as Amsterdam returns from reform school as a man and becomes Bill Cutting's right hand man and adopted son, heir apparent to his position as Ruler of the Five Points, only to plot his death. After all, isn't this new bastard generation able to proceed only by rising up and killing their forebears after taking on the worst of all their characistics?

Let the sons of the rich go and fight… let the sons of the poor stay home.





Class tensions are well presented and culminate in the depiction of the NY Draft Riots of 1863. There is considerable criticism of the "reformers" from uptown who would descend on neighborhoods like the Five Points to gawk and shudder at the deplorable conditions and of the American democratic machine which is shown as being rigged and entirely bought off several times in the film.



Several times we cheer on the characters for doing the most noble deed, that is, messing with and ripping off rich folk, and boo loudly when the boardroom of socialites reminds everyone that "you can always pay one half of the poor to kill the other half." The poor could give a shit about freeing the slaves or fighting in some rich man's war. In one touching scene we follow recent Irish immigrants down the gangplank into New York just to go up another and off to fight in the Civil War.

And yet what is really most remarkable about this film is how not one of the main characters is shown in a sympathetic light. Every single one of them is gross or distorted in some way. There is no doubt that even Amsterdam, drawn under the wing of the dragon, finds it is much warmer than one would think. He is duplicitous, his best friend is jealous, his girlfriend is greedy and in tatters, and his even his father is a blood-thirsty psychopath. The politicians are corrupt and cynical and the rich are vultures. Even the firemen spend more time torching than they do helping. Racists and drunkards. The only character we really affiliate ourselves with, as American cinema-goers, is Bill Cutting himself in all his bloody and honor-bound method-in-madness.



Do you know how I stayed alive this long? Fear. The spectacle of fearsome acts. Somebody steals from me, I cut off his hands. He offends me, I cut out his tongue. He rises against me, I cut off his head, stick it on a pike...raise is high up so all in the streets can see. That's what preserves the order of things. Fear. That one tonight, who was he? A nobody, a coward. What an ignominious end that would have been. I kiled the last honorable man fifteen years ago… The Priest and me, we lived by the same principles. It was only faith divided us. He give me this, you know. That was the finest beating I ever took. My face was pulp, my guts was pierced, my ribs was all mashed up. And when he came to finish me, I couldn't look him in the eye. He spared me because...he wanted me to live in shame. This was a great man. A great man. So I cut out the eye that looked away. Sent it to him wrapped in blue paper. Would have cut 'em both out if I could have fought him blind. Then I rose up again with a full heart and buried him in his own blood. He was the only man I ever killed worth remembering. I never had a son. Civilization is crumbling.





Here is the candid admission of our savagery as Americans, wound up in this film about our bloody birth as a nation. Unashamed, the characters embrace this dark reality of American history. After all, we were not the angelic heroes presented to us in war epics, starry-eyed and vivid Terrance Malik prairie tales, or good-natured charm in Forrest Gump. We have this genocidal history built into us, even as parts of cities are built on top of other parts and as tombstones crumble into obscurity. Yet we grip onto this genetic history of ours, insisting that even newcomers take their taste of oppression and misery in order to be accepted as True Americans. It's quiet and something we don't brag about, but Gangs of New York is unashamed and appreciated for reminding us how deep it goes.

Discussion of "I never had a son," or, "civilization is crumbling" on tHE r H i z z o n E:

#1
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#2
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#3
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#4
i dont think its either/or monster or hero, i think we're both
#5
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#8
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#9
The scene with the three different prayers (before the riots) is actually kind of brilliant (though i think missing something). Each praying for a different side of god as they see him (one war & justice, the liberal rich invoking a merciful god, and the fascist invoking brutal naked defensive destruction).

and yeah, i think scorcese would agree on your monsters take but i dont think you should simply accept it (there's this fetid pj orourke smell in it). this is the dude that helped birth the "ive always wanted to be a gangster" 90s take on the genre ("the world is corrupt, i didnt start it, lets just admit power is attractive"), that sort of brutal naked "it is how it is, i'm just saying it", a pseudo-cynical atitude that vocalizes what capitalism can't afford to explicitly state. we're monsters only, that's it, we agree boss (even forrest gump goes against the grain in comparison - no patrick bateman wishes to imagine himself as a sweet brutalized retard).

(scorcese even shows himself as a rich fucker cameron diaz steals from - it implies a certain brutal self-interest, that sort of 00s "no bullshit" pseudo-honesty, accepting class conflict readings to then just "cynically" say "yeah it's class war, we're all just out for ourselves, fuck you got mine, we're all savages, it's brutal power, and it's unescapable").
#10
The original author of the gangs of new york, Herbert Asbury got his career started with the ur-south park republican HL Mencken with a story about a

a prostitute from Asbury's hometown of Farmington, Missouri. The prostitute took her Protestant customers to the Catholic cemetery to conduct business, and took her Catholic customers to the Protestant cemetery; some in Farmington considered this woman beyond redemption.

#11
HL mencken owns u anti-american hippie
#12
I don't know why I've never seen this, but I will watch it and report back
#13
For real, Mencken haters need to GET A CLUE
#14
"these are the hands that built america"

#15
GREAT OP
#16
that line "thank god... i die a true american" has always stuck out like a sore FREAKIN thumb and i do not like it nor do i like the whole "lets breathe in growing aggression until we kinda hobble at each other walking on our knees and you stab me to death" part of that scene either. i watch that movie a lot though, flaws are o.k.
#17

The_Schliski posted:
that line "thank god... i die a true american" has always stuck out like a sore FREAKIN thumb and i do not like it nor do i like the whole "lets breathe in growing aggression until we kinda hobble at each other walking on our knees and you stab me to death" part of that scene either. i watch that movie a lot though, flaws are o.k.



wtf, why not?

#18

AmericanNazbro posted:
wtf, why not?



that final line stinks of contrivance, of something the filmmaker wanted someone to say and she or he did not bother to make it sound like something the character would have said; a pure case of "tell" rather than "show"

same with the final murder, it's like they both just switched gears and it was quite clear it was because that's how the script was written

great movies and even great stories never have that happen unless they have set themselves up that way

compare to don corleone's death, which is 100% symbolic and yet at the same time chekovian in its utter banality. bill the butcher's slaughter lacked naturalism, which would be fine, except that the rest of the film was all about fecundity, life and stench. none of which tolerate a pat ending or anything as deliberate as, say, shakespeare

#19
I think its a mistake to call Scorcese's vision of civil war era New York as a microcosm of USA. For over 100 years America did have a feel of Jeffersonian agrarian paradise. The really brutal cruelty stuff doesn't happen until the banks overthrow that for good in the time of the railroads and gold rushes.

The irish were just the original class of labor undercutting class, first irish, then blacks, then irish and chinese, then southern europeans, then mexicans. With plenty of legacy trawling with each previous group.

The majority of americans were anti slavery, the south was a banana republic filled with whites who came from long lines of fighty people, those scots irish that the english crown used as their weaponized population, to send wherever a mass of people needed brutalizing. Nationalism got the best of them and they died by the thousand to defend a really scenic but horrible oligarchy. then one of them killed lincoln so reconstruction was never really fully implemented and it remains a shitty place to-day

Big cities have always been, at least in part, dirty scary places. Imported populations undercutting wages always lead to strife. The irish were sent from the docks to the recruiting station to fight in a war that had nothing to do with them, and were so good at it that it only increased the practice. It's no wonder that you see stuff like the Irish brigades and individual soldiers switching to the Mexican side in the mexican american war.

Poor old Mexico had so much promise, but there was too much money to be made to leave them alone.

In conclusion: gangs of new york is a better portrait of a mixed popuation city in an early industrializing state than of USA as whole. Although it's true that the United States' population's core set of values was always a really brutal protestant thing, as easily adapted for imperialist stuff as its predecessor in England'ssss's wassss. But there's no reason that rage can't be used to create a better world, like harnessing a rampaging bull to pull a plow. I think that's what a lot of late gilded age Eugene V Debs socialism was fueled by, that angry drive toward fairness

I'm having a hard time keeping my eyes open , so I'm sorry if this is as disjointed as it seems to be
#20
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#21

Myfanwy posted:
I think its a mistake to call Scorcese's vision of civil war era New York as a microcosm of USA. For over 100 years America did have a feel of Jeffersonian agrarian paradise.



The murder rates of rural counties in the Southern Colonies outstripped those of modern-day New York City; these rates do not include the murders of slaves at the hands of whites. I learned this from All God's Children: The Boskett Family and the American Tradition of Violence which is a pretty good book which people should read!

Willie Boskett is the reason that children can be tried as adults in USA courts

#22
its also worth noting that the southern agrarian model differed profoundly from the northern one and that the civil war was in large part about resolving conflicting agroecological models and their relation to urban centers and nutrient flows imo
#23

shennong posted:
its also worth noting that the southern agrarian model differed profoundly from the northern one and that the civil war was in large part about resolving conflicting agroecological models and their relation to urban centers and nutrient flows imo



Of course that's your contention. You're a first year grad student. You just got finished reading some Marxian historian, Pete Garrison probably, you’re gonna be convinced of that until next month when you get to James Lemon, then you’re gonna be talkin’ about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year, you’re gonna be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin’ about you know, the Pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.

#24
i have no idea what you're talking about dude
#25

shennong posted:
i have no idea what you're talking about dude



good post hunting

#26
i generally dont pay attention to anything marxists have to say about agriculture, but if they object to the blanket characterisation of early american agroecology as a "jeffersonian agrarian paradise" they have a point
#27

shennong posted:

i generally dont pay attention to anything marxists have to say about agriculture, but if they object to the blanket characterisation of early american agroecology as a "jeffersonian agrarian paradise" they have a point



#28
oh lol. i dun watch too many movies, mebbe i should watch that one tho
#29
The main reference in the title is to a pastime associated with (mostly) low-income people called "Goodwill Hunting", which is searching Goodwill charity stores for special finds. In the movie, a working class person (Will Hunting) is "found" by various people in ways that run contrary to our assumptions. That is, normally a janitor would not be guessed to be a mathematics genius, a wealthy foreign graduate student would not normally form a relationship with a janitor and a low-grade junior college psychologist would not be assumed to be better than all the experts that Will was sent to. The title is analogous to "diamond in the rough." Obviously it also refers to the fact that Will Hunting is Good, as the user above suggested.
#30
louis ck has a new special out. it's okay.
#31

The_Schliski posted:

Myfanwy posted:
I think its a mistake to call Scorcese's vision of civil war era New York as a microcosm of USA. For over 100 years America did have a feel of Jeffersonian agrarian paradise.

The murder rates of rural counties in the Southern Colonies outstripped those of modern-day New York City; these rates do not include the murders of slaves at the hands of whites. I learned this from All God's Children: The Boskett Family and the American Tradition of Violence which is a pretty good book which people should read!

Willie Boskett is the reason that children can be tried as adults in USA courts



Oooh sorry, I didn't mean the slave south stuff, I meant free men working land they owned and living easy, loving free. The cotton gin southern slave economy was really hideous and they had to wring every drop of productivity out of the land and their super expensive slaves. So the super fertile missippi delta produced lots of slave owning millionaires. I wouldn't call that a paradise

#32

The_Schliski posted:
that final line stinks of contrivance, of something the filmmaker wanted someone to say and she or he did not bother to make it sound like something the character would have said; a pure case of "tell" rather than "show"

same with the final murder, it's like they both just switched gears and it was quite clear it was because that's how the script was written

great movies and even great stories never have that happen unless they have set themselves up that way


fwiw those were the last words of the historical Bill the Butcher except he died after being shot in the back in a bar fight and not in an epic struggle with a former teen heart throb; a true american death as it were

#33

discipline posted:
Several times we cheer on the characters for doing the most noble deed, that is, messing with and ripping off rich folk, and boo loudly when the boardroom of socialites reminds everyone that "you can always pay one half of the poor to kill the other half."



here is a new detail for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Gould#Late_career

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