Edit: directed at crust punks explanation
Does she also try and assign that view to aristotle? the bit about can't be burning and frozen at the same time seems to be an altered version of what aristotle argues in the beginning of the metaphysics
Edited by Lykourgos ()
crustpunk_trotsky posted:Lykourgos posted:
What's an objectivist, again? It's been so long since hearing the term that all I remember is it has something to do with someone called ayn randas far as I can understand it means nothing has value or meaning beyond its face value
Oh so you know nothing about Objectivism. Here, have a peer-reviewed philosophical resource http://www.iep.utm.edu/rand/
christmas_cheer posted:crustpunk_trotsky posted:Lykourgos posted:
What's an objectivist, again? It's been so long since hearing the term that all I remember is it has something to do with someone called ayn randas far as I can understand it means nothing has value or meaning beyond its face value
Oh so you know nothing about Objectivism. Here, have a peer-reviewed philosophical resource http://www.iep.utm.edu/rand/
Virgin alert
Lykourgos posted:
Uhh, that sounds really dumb
Edit: directed at crust punks explanation
Does she also try and assign that view to aristotle? the bit about can't be burning and frozen at the same time seems to be an altered version of what aristotle argues in the beginning of the metaphysics
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/aristotle.html
Aristotle’s philosophy was the intellect’s Declaration of Independence. Aristotle, the father of logic, should be given the title of the world’s first intellectual, in the purest and noblest sense of that word. No matter what remnants of Platonism did exist in Aristotle’s system, his incomparable achievement lay in the fact that he defined the basic principles of a rational view of existence and of man’s consciousness: that there is only one reality, the one which man perceives—that it exists as an objective absolute (which means: independently of the consciousness, the wishes or the feelings of any perceiver)—that the task of man’s consciousness is to perceive, not to create, reality—that abstractions are man’s method of integrating his sensory material—that man’s mind is his only tool of knowledge—that A is A.
Li Si and Han Feizi were both students of xunzi, with li si going on to become prime minister of the qin dynasty, renown for his cruelty and totalitarianism. supposedly at some point li si and han feizi fell out, and li si convinced the king that han feizi was planning a coup and should be jailed. once this was done, he visited his old friend in jail and informed him the king thought he was a traitor & was planning to have him killed in a painful and torturous fashion. so he gave him poison and han feizi killed himself.
Edited by aerdil ()
To make this post worthwhile, here's what happened to Li Si, taken from his biography in the Shi Ji ( http://ctext.org/shiji/li-si-lie-zhuan )
二世二年七月，具斯五刑，論腰斬咸陽市。斯出獄，與其中子俱執，顧謂其中子曰：「吾欲與若復牽黃犬俱出上蔡東門逐狡兔，豈可得乎！」遂父子相哭，而夷三族。
Which would mean something along the lines of,
Second Emperor's second year seventh month, Li Si underwent the Five Punishments and was chopped apart at the waist in the marketplace of Xian Yang. Leaving the prison with his son, he looked to him and said "If we wanted to walk our yellow dog once more out the east gate of Shang Cai to chase the cunning rabbit, how could it be done!" Then, father and son cried together, and Li Si's relatives to the third degree were executed.
edit: also crustpunk that link to the objectionist guy's account of aristotle is really terrible; not as in it's a bad link, but the guy's views on aristotle themselves are terrible. Is there an article where they give citations to the text and explain how they conclude what Aristotle was thinking? I almost want to sit down and take the time to just write a rebuttal, it's offensive how they relate themselves to aristotle.
Edited by Lykourgos ()
i only started posting when lf was taken down. this is the third unique poster people have accused me of being.
Lykourgos posted:
oh damn beaten by aerdil, I'm mad irl
Second Emperor's second year seventh month, Li Si underwent the Five Punishments and was chopped apart at the waist in the marketplace of Xian Yang. Leaving the prison with his son, he looked to him and said "If we wanted to walk our yellow dog once more out the east gate of Shang Cai to chase the cunning rabbit, how could it be done!" Then, father and son cried together, and Li Si's relatives to the third degree were executed.
my favorite antiquity story is about how the emperor died while out of the capital, and Li Si figured if word got back before he did there'd be some sort of uprising, so he propped him up in his carriage and pretended he was still alive, changed his clothes daily, faked conversations with him, and put his carriage behind a cart carrying fish so no one would notice any smell
guess we can add weekend at bernie's to the list of ancient chinese inventions
crustpunk_trotsky posted:Lykourgos posted:
oh damn beaten by aerdil, I'm mad irl
Second Emperor's second year seventh month, Li Si underwent the Five Punishments and was chopped apart at the waist in the marketplace of Xian Yang. Leaving the prison with his son, he looked to him and said "If we wanted to walk our yellow dog once more out the east gate of Shang Cai to chase the cunning rabbit, how could it be done!" Then, father and son cried together, and Li Si's relatives to the third degree were executed.my favorite antiquity story is about how the emperor died while out of the capital, and Li Si figured if word got back before he did there'd be some sort of uprising, so he propped him up in his carriage and pretended he was still alive, changed his clothes daily, faked conversations with him, and put his carriage behind a cart carrying fish so no one would notice any smell
guess we can add weekend at bernie's to the list of ancient chinese inventions
Li Si didn't fear an uprising, rather zhao gao and li si feared the heir, fu su, and a general named meng tian and his brother meng yi (who had previously tried to have zhao gao executed), and the two both concluded that they would be replaced during the transition. They pulled a weekend at bernies so as to order the heir and the mengs to commit suicide, and then the younger son (who joined the conspiracy) became emperor and they kept their jobs. Li si and zhao gao then fought for influence and zhao gao ultimately convinced the new emperor to kill li si, and zhao gao later had the second emperor commit suicide, and was in turn killed by the third emperor, who then rode over to the rebels with a noose round his neck
Edited by Lykourgos ()
tpaine posted:
i have an account from 2004 on gamefaqs called Kurt_Vortigaunt
someone named a horse after me http://www.horseracingnation.com/horse/Lets_Get_Fiscal
Wu Ma Zi: "When I am beaten I feel pain. When they are beaten the pain does not extend to me. Why should I resist what does not give me pain but not resist what gives me pain? Therefore I would rather have them killed to benefit me than to have me killed to benefit them."
Mozi: "Is this view of yours to be kept secret or to be told to others?"
objectivism seems so dirty, so the last piece in the puzzle (and really the only piece I cared about) is why they keep dragging aristotle in to it and bad mouthing plato
Lykourgos posted:
huh that is actually a helpful comparison. I did a bit of reading because I enjoyed the Robber Zhi story (even though I disagree with it), and found a funny response by Mozi to an objectionist:
Wu Ma Zi: "When I am beaten I feel pain. When they are beaten the pain does not extend to me. Why should I resist what does not give me pain but not resist what gives me pain? Therefore I would rather have them killed to benefit me than to have me killed to benefit them."
Mozi: "Is this view of yours to be kept secret or to be told to others?"
hahahahahahahah
Lykourgos posted:
objectivism seems so dirty, so the last piece in the puzzle (and really the only piece I cared about) is why they keep dragging aristotle in to it and bad mouthing plato
because they are more often vermin and vile scum! they are weak, depraved fools, and of course they want to drag every good name down in the muck with them.
e: the full thing is fuckin great, objectivists should indeed shut their mouth:
Wu Ma-tzu told Mo-tzu: "I differ from you. I cannot love universally -- I love the people of Tsou better than the people of Ch'u, the people of Lu better than the people of Tsou, the people of my district better than the people of Lu, the members of my family better than the people of my district, my parents better than the other members of my family, and myself better than my parents. This, because of their nearness to me.
When I am beaten I feel pain. When they are beaten the pain does not extend to me. Why should I resist what does not give me pain but not resist what gives me pain? Therefore I would rather have them killed to benefit me than to have me killed to benefit them."
Mo-tzu said: Is this view of yours to be kept secret or to be told to others? Wu Ma-tzu replied: "Why should I keep my opinion to myself? Of course I shall tell it to others." Mo-tzu said: Then if one person is pleased with you, there will be one person who will desire to kill you in order to benefit himself. If ten persons are pleased with you, there will be ten persons who will desire to kill you to benefit themselves. If (the people of) the whole world are pleased with you, the whole world will desire to kill you to benefit themselves.
(On the other hand), if one person is not pleased with you there will be one person who will desire to kill you as the propagator of a wicked doctrine. If ten persons are not pleased with you there will be ten persons who will desire to kill you as the propagator of an evil doctrine. If (the people of) the whole world are not pleased with you the whole world will desire to kill you as the propagator of an evil doctrine.
(So, then) those who are pleased with you desire to kill you and those who are not pleased with you also desire to kill you. This is to say, what passes out from your mouth is what kills your body. Mo-tzu continued: Then, where, after all, does the benefit of your doctrine lie? To teach what is not profitable is merely to wear out one's mouth.
Edited by Crow ()
Zhi: "I reject everything you say. Go home right now, without another word! This Way of yours is a crazy, fraudulent, vain, empty, and artificial business. It is no way to fulfill your true self. Why even talk about it?"
Kongzi bowed twice and shuffled off. He exited the gate, mounted his chariot, and fumbled three times reaching for the reins. His eyes were dull, as though he couldn't see, and his complexion was like dead ashes. Leaning on the rail with his head drooping, he could barely breathe.
aerdil posted:
the best part of the robber zhi story is the way kongzi (confucius) is portrayed as a bumbling idiot fool after getting mega-owned by robber zhi
Zhi: "I reject everything you say. Go home right now, without another word! This Way of yours is a crazy, fraudulent, vain, empty, and artificial business. It is no way to fulfill your true self. Why even talk about it?"
Kongzi bowed twice and shuffled off. He exited the gate, mounted his chariot, and fumbled three times reaching for the reins. His eyes were dull, as though he couldn't see, and his complexion was like dead ashes. Leaning on the rail with his head drooping, he could barely breathe.
hahahah owned idiot noob bitch
babyfinland posted:
what are you guys quoting from
Mo Zi for the Wu Ma Zi stuff, and Zhuang Zi for the Robber Zhi stuff
edit here are some translations:
Mo Zi:
http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=3551&if=en
Zhuang Zi:
http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/robber-zhi
Edited by Lykourgos ()
getfiscal posted:discipline posted:
that cool I hope to not wear diapers for at least another 70 years thoi'll take one for the team and start wearing them, if it helps the rhizzone.
thank you.
As for Xugong of the northern city, he is the most beautiful in the state of Qi. Zou Ji did not believe himself and asked his concubine, "Myself and Xugong, which one is more beautiful?" His concubine replied, "How could Xugong match you?"
The next day, a guest came from outside and sat down with Zou Ji and talked. He asked him: "As for me and Xugong, which one is more beautiful?" The guest said, "Xugong's beauty is not as good as yours."
The day after, Xugong came. Zou Ji thoroughly looked at him, then considered himself not as beautiful. He peeked into a mirror and observed himself. He was not as good as Xugong by far. That evening he slept and thought about this, thinking, "As to the thinking of me as beautiful of my wife, she is partial to me. As to my concubine considering me handsome, she is afraid of me. As to my guest, he will soon have demands from me."
Then from this he was brought into the court to have an audience with King Wei. He said, "I truly know I am not as beautiful as Xugong. My wife is partial to me, my concubine fears me, and my guest will soon request favors from me. They all consider me beautiful in relation to Xugong. Now, the state of Qi has a plot of 10,000 li, and 120 heights of city walls; of the palace women and advisers, there are none who are not partial to your majesty. As to the ministers of the royal court, none of them do not fear your majesty. Within the four boundaries, none of those inside do not have requests from your Majesty. If from this I look at the situation, then the deceptions of your majesty are extreme!"
The King said, "Very well." He handed down an order:
"As to the ministers, soldiers and people who are able to criticize the King's transgressions, they will receive the highest reward. Those who establish a memorial criticizing me, they will receive the medial reward. Those who are able to censure & satirize in the marketplace and court, to cause to be heard by the King's ear, they shall receive the lowest reward."
At first when the order was handed down, the many ministers went forth to criticize, and the gates and court were like a bustling marketplace. A few months later, they went forth sporadically to criticize. A full year later, even though they wished to speak, there were no things that could be sent up.
Yan Zhao Han Wei heard of this, and sent vassal envoys to Qi. This is what is called winning the battle in the royal court.
Edited by crustpunk_trotsky ()
Among the men of Zheng, there was one who was about to buy shoes. First, he measured his feet, then place the measurements on his chair. When it came time to go to the market, he forgot to bring them. He already found shoes, only then saying, "I forgot to bring measurements!"
He turned around to return and get them. Upon returning, the marketplace had closed, and in the end he couldn't get shoes. A man asked him, "Why didn't you try out the shoes using your feet?"
He replied, "I would rather trust the measurements. Let me not trust myself."
crustpunk_trotsky posted:
Yan Zhao Han Wei heard of this, and sent vassal envoys to Qi. This is what is called winning the battle in the royal court.
you had me till the end there. What?