iFederico posted:East Germany (which was the subject of the discussion with getfiscal) was absolutely a prison state.
the earth is a prison planet more like. constraining us with shit like gravity and a dense atmosphere. let us free!
jools posted:anyway so crow are you arguing that communism was good because people couldn't travel abroad but capitalism is bad because people can't travel abroad
no he's saying that communism was good because people could travel throughout the country even if international travel was restricted. however capitalism is bad because people can't even travel from one part of country to other, let alone travel internationally. so capitalism is more restrictive to travel than communism and is therefore not as good, especially if you, for example, live in russia and want to travel.
littlegreenpills posted:take a look at the percentages of human beings who have left their home towns on a global scale. okay it's quite high especially with unprecedented waves of urbanization in the developing world. but it's a historical anomaly and fucking dreadful. why leave your home. why betray your soil. why make your mother cry. why. go home everyone
youre advocating that i return to florida and rot there in the sweltering bug-infested swampland. you monster
tpaine posted:discipline posted:crow and I are literally the only members of this thread who have not lived somewhere where mobility was restricted by law and force of violence oh wait
i live in florida, where it's restricted by residents' physiognomy
tpaine i understand florida is being swalloed by the earth. can you give a report from the gruond
Truck Driver Confirms Underground City Beneath US http://t.co/6Q5Zj9WdNk (VIDEO)
Interesting interview with a trucker confirming an underground transportation system in the United states. The roadway supposedly connects the entire United States into one big underground grid. The trucker confirmed driving the highway from Maine to the Ozarks calculating about 1,500 miles.
to everyone else on the outside, coming in afterward, it probably looks like something mundane, LIKE A SINKHOLE
just a thought
ilmdge posted:this is the cause of it i think:
Truck Driver Confirms Underground City Beneath US http://t.co/6Q5Zj9WdNk (VIDEO)
Interesting interview with a trucker confirming an underground transportation system in the United states. The roadway supposedly connects the entire United States into one big underground grid. The trucker confirmed driving the highway from Maine to the Ozarks calculating about 1,500 miles.
lol, kusturica was right.....
ilmdge posted:this is the cause of it i think:
Truck Driver Confirms Underground City Beneath US http://t.co/6Q5Zj9WdNk (VIDEO)
Interesting interview with a trucker confirming an underground transportation system in the United states. The roadway supposedly connects the entire United States into one big underground grid. The trucker confirmed driving the highway from Maine to the Ozarks calculating about 1,500 miles.
Jesse Ventura, the last American Hero, has also been on the case:
TG posted:littlegreenpills posted:take a look at the percentages of human beings who have left their home towns on a global scale. okay it's quite high especially with unprecedented waves of urbanization in the developing world. but it's a historical anomaly and fucking dreadful. why leave your home. why betray your soil. why make your mother cry. why. go home everyone
youre advocating that i return to florida and rot there in the sweltering bug-infested swampland. you monster
it's your duty to stay in your homeland and make it a better place. also it's quarantined for a reason.
Impper posted:im a fascist now
Impper posted:im a fascist now
yah, but haven't you always had an inclination towards that type of aesthetic?
one of the only POC there was the girl that brought me, she told a story about how she was sexually assaulted on the el and the pigs told her matter-of-factly that she was wearing short shorts and a tank top, as if that was something. they also asked her if the assaulter was black as a first question. and the response from the regulars was sort of tepid. so we know that there is a culture that is deeply rooted in sexual violence for its own perpetuation, and there is poverty, and there is a system that blames the victim even if it doesnt have that intention or doesnt know what it is doing. but what to do right now, roving gangs of punishers? you're not going to magically have structures in place. anyway, i havent fully thought that out yet.
overall i think it was a good thing to go to, some people vented their frustrations and there were a lot of good points. the people i met there were social workers, students, teachers, and retail workers.
animedad posted:one of the things the meeting lacked was people that had historical knowledge of reforms and measures taken by actually existing socialist countries. the tone was like "yeah capitalism needs to go and then we'll have a great situation for women". but im pretty sure that's not how it happened in the USSR or anywhere really.
the ISO doesn't believe there has been a socialist country yet. i'm not being dumb, i seriously mean they think all existing states have been state-capitalist and not socialist and therefore not very relevant to thinking about socialism. but it's sort of a weird definition because it depends on the idea that a socialist state would be thoroughly councilist and already fading away.
getfiscal posted:the ISO doesn't believe there has been a socialist country yet. i'm not being dumb, i seriously mean they think all existing states have been state-capitalist and not socialist and therefore not very relevant to thinking about socialism. but it's sort of a weird definition because it depends on the idea that a socialist state would be thoroughly councilist and already fading away.
this is a common trotskyist position and it basically causes the exact problem animedad repeated forever though of course flipping it over its important not to be to historical as well and fail to appreciate that apart from Cuba actually existing socialism has vanished and all socialism we build from this point will be built within that framework not as jools said "with the berlin wall popping back out of the ground"
on that note Cuba is a safe bet if people want to make a contribution to a meeting by re-rooting the discussion in actually existing socialism as it prevents people start debating pointless nonsense about now vanished places (not only with trots but with the public) it also gives your point way more dynamism because their is a sense of change now
Edited by SovietFriends ()
also useful to do that if you want to chart it as a history going all the way back to marx so you can close the loop re theory
ilmdge posted:how should i respond when peopl say to me "if cuba's so great why dont you move there"
they dont do very good cake cos of the blockade but they all think its really good cos they dont know any different but you would
getfiscal posted:sovietfrenzy, do you consider north korea socialist? why not?
their cake is even worse
like china has a large state enterprise sector, more economic regulation than most developing countries, finance is dominated by the state, there is a party and government and constitution in place that calls itself socialist, and it is recognized as socialist by countries like cuba and venezuela. meanwhile venezuela has only 20% of its banking sector nationalized. but like taking the side of the chinese government seems pretty weird to me after all the horrible shit they do.
getfiscal posted:but like taking the side of the I N S E R T. C O U N T R Y government seems pretty weird to me after all the horrible shit they do.
ANARKKKY
getfiscal posted:i don't even know if it matters anymore whether a country is "socialist" or not if it's not like a bunch of yards down the line on that.
like china has a large state enterprise sector, more economic regulation than most developing countries, finance is dominated by the state, there is a party and government and constitution in place that calls itself socialist, and it is recognized as socialist by countries like cuba and venezuela. meanwhile venezuela has only 20% of its banking sector nationalized. but like taking the side of the chinese government seems pretty weird to me after all the horrible shit they do.
thumbs up if the cake is a lie 
getfiscal posted:sovietfrenzy, do you consider north korea socialist? why not?
i dont know because i dont read anything about it and so far that is fine and has never been a problem in my life but my first guesstimate would be no and not going to work it out because of the first bit of this sentance
china is interesting cos its not socialist but its a deffo weird capitalist
venezuela is similar but less in both directions
cubans do see both china and venezuela as socialist in terms of propaganda but people who are a bit more into marxist theory their recognize the situation is more complicated, the china position in particular is cos china is really really really really really nice to them while the venezuela thing is a lingo thing about different directions to socialism more or less