deadken posted:

& at one point he says that the islamists are fleeing gaddafi loyalists which is fuckin moronic

but its provocative and hard to disprove so it's actually pretty smart

deadken posted:

i used to support the secular-nationalist leader of my libyan homeland but now he's gone i guess i'll go and fight for a bunch of islamists in a completely different country. this makes perfect sense

Nobody actually cares about what is happening in the middle-east, they just use it as a proxy to argue their domestic culture wars/sectarian battles/ideological disagreements

wasted posted:

baathists are terrorist fyi. also islamofascism is a thing and terrorism is its foundation.

even i'm not stupid enough to say that

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

deadken posted:

i used to support the secular-nationalist leader of my libyan homeland but now he's gone i guess i'll go and fight for a bunch of islamists in a completely different country. this makes perfect sense

Nobody actually cares about what is happening in the middle-east, they just use it as a proxy to argue their domestic culture wars/sectarian battles/ideological disagreements

agree but with all international issues

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
deadken posted:
i used to support the secular-nationalist leader of my libyan homeland but now he's gone i guess i'll go and fight for a bunch of islamists in a completely different country. this makes perfect sense
Nobody actually cares about what is happening in the middle-east, they just use it as a proxy to argue their domestic culture wars/sectarian battles/ideological disagreements


agree but with all international issues

Oh yeah totally.

Humans can maintain about 7-10 close relationships max, their relations to any people more than that is just abstract dogma

granted but without abstract dogma/symbolism most people would be sitting around scratching their asses or be limited to the rule of an immediately visible leader

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
deadken posted:
i used to support the secular-nationalist leader of my libyan homeland but now he's gone i guess i'll go and fight for a bunch of islamists in a completely different country. this makes perfect sense
Nobody actually cares about what is happening in the middle-east, they just use it as a proxy to argue their domestic culture wars/sectarian battles/ideological disagreements


agree but with all international issues



Oh yeah totally.

Humans can maintain about 7-10 close relationships max, their relations to any people more than that is just abstract dogma

*gives his gaddafi bodypillow a squeeze*

stegosaurus posted:

http://www.m-pep.org/spip.php?article3184analyse de samir amin

http://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/17946p/mali_analysis_by_samir_amin/ heres a translation (apologies for link)

hmmm..

do we know the extent to which the Tuaregs have been 'sidelined' by the foreign jihadists?

"The older brother asked him: 'Why did you join the militant people?'" recalled Corp Toure. "He replied: 'Because they pay well.' He said he was earning two million CFA (£2,600) a year, plus 500,000 CFA (£750) for every day spent fighting."

That might not sound much by Western standards, but Corp Toure said that even the basic pay level was double his own army income.

Especially after the inevitable "deductions" from his superiors, who routinely cream a bit off from the lower ranks' earnings each month to line their own pockets. And when it came to earning the "fighting" bonus, it was probably safer to be the side of the well-armed, well-organised militants than the chronically under-equipped Malian army, who lost so many battles to them last year that it sparked the military coup in March and, ultimately, this month's French intervention.

"I did wonder about joining them, but then I had second thoughts and decided to protect the people instead," added Corp Toure, as he watched children playing around the wreckage of three burnt-out gun trucks. "But if you look up in Timbuktu and Kidal (militant-held towns in the north) I can tell you plenty of soldiers who have switched sides there."

...

One Malian aid worker, who returned to the country in 2003 after nearly two decades abroad, said: "When I came I was shocked by the changes I saw in the extent of radical Islam here. There are lot more radical Muslims and radical Islamic organisations that didn't exist before."

In some parts of the country, the lawlessness that goes hand in hand with a weak, corrupt, coup-ridden government has also created strong support for harsh punishments, if not necessarily the religious dogma that goes with it. Abdurraham Ballo, 64, the imam of the Mosque of the New Bus Station in Segou, said the only thing that was wrong with the amputations carried out in the Islamist-held towns further north was that they cut off feet as well as hands.

"That practice is not allowed in Islam, it should only be the hands," he said. "But the purpose of amputation is to prevent as well as punish, and if it can stop people stealing and robbing, then why not? Nowadays there all kinds of people stealing, and carrying out robberies with violence."

Mr Ballo added that he laid part of the blame on Mali "importing Western laws", which stopped people beating thieves and emphasised criminals' "human rights".

"All laws in Africa are imported from Europe these days, and they all talk of 'human rights'," he said. "Who is human? Only Europeans?"

http://latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/another-kind-of-islamism-gains-ground-in-southern-mali/

BAMAKO, Mali — Last spring radical Islamism took over the north of Mali. Three fundamentalist militias with links to Al Qaeda hijacked a Tuareg uprising and after seizing two-thirds of the country, enforced Shariah at gunpoint and smashed religious monuments, eliciting comparisons to the Taliban.

Now, a republican form of Islamism is peacefully conquering the south of Mali. The High Council of Islam, an Islamist civil society organization, has gradually emerged as the country’s strongest political force.

...

Yet if southern Mali is heading toward Islamism, it is an Islamism based on persuasion, not violence and repression, as in the north. Also this week Dicko extended “warm thanks” to “His Excellence” François Hollande for the recent French intervention, while slamming “certain Gulf and other Muslim countries” — meaning Tunisia, Qatar, Egypt and members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation — which called the French campaign an attack against Islam.

One Malian recently tweeted in support of Dicko: “These Arab Islamists are racists for they only conceive of Islam as being by Arabs, blacks are just second class.” He, like most black southern Malians, who overwhelmingly support the intervention, do not grant Arab countries a monopoly on the interpretation of Islam. They favor their own version, leavened by pluralism and compromise-seeking.

http://www.stripes.com/news/africa/mali-expert-says-tuareg-people-key-to-beating-insurgents-7.176948

this ones good so ill just paste the whole thing

STUTTGART, Germany — During the early days of U.S. counterterrorism efforts in Africa, Rudolph Atallah made frequent trips to northern Mali, where he roved across the rugged Sahara with the locals known as the Tuareg.

Nearly 10 years before the territory fell into the hands of Islamic militants, Atallah, who was then serving as Africa counterterrorism director for the Defense Intelligence Agency, marveled at the Tuaregs’ ability to navigate the terrain. There were no roads, no sign posts or obvious ways to get a sense of direction. And after four hours of bouncy twists and turns during a desert trip in 2004, Atallah wanted to know how the driver did it.

“I’m sitting in the front seat, it’s hot, we’re eating dust, and I ask him how he doesn’t get lost,” said Atallah, who retired from the Air Force in 2009 and now runs a security consultant firm. “The driver smiles and says, ‘You know GPS? I am TPS. Tuareg Positioning System.’ ”

To the government in Mali and its army, which the U.S. has spent millions of dollars over the years trying to turn into a capable fighting force, the Tuaregs have long been regarded as the enemy. To policymakers in the West, the Tuaregs are an ethnic group with legitimate political grievances, but who are nonetheless kept at arm’s length because of their separatist rebellion in Mali’s north.

But to Atallah, who was in Stuttgart this week to consult with Special Operations Command Africa about the unfolding crisis in Mali, the Tuaregs are an untapped resource. They are the missing piece in a U.S. strategy that so far has done little to curb the growing threat of al-Qaida-aligned militants who have taken root in the region, according to Atallah.

“In order to be a force multiplier against the Islamists, you need to integrate the secular Tuareg, the secular movement, in this intervention force in the north,” said Atallah during an interview in Stuttgart. “Get them to push out the core Islamists and get them to become the force up north that can raise the alarm anytime these guys try to turn up. The Tuareg never wanted them there in the first place.”

So far, few policymakers in the West appear to be listening as France continues to lead an intervention in Mali aimed at pushing back Islamists who have asserted control over a large portion of the country. However, within Africa Command’s secretive special operations community, Atallah says his ideas are resonating.

“SOCAF understands the problem sets very well,” said Atallah, a fluent Arabic and French speaker who has made more than 40 trips to northern Mali. “They really get it.”

In the two weeks of France’s surprise intervention, gains have been made on the battlefield. With the help of French airstrikes and fire power on the ground, Malian forces have been retaking cities. Small numbers of troops from Western African nations are on the way to help. Analysts, however, say there are many unanswered questions about the intervention and the long-term strategy for containing the terror threat.

For its part, the U.S. has provided logistical support to the French, mainly in the form of transporting troops into the country while asserting there would be no U.S. combat troops on the ground. Meanwhile, the broader U.S. policy, which has focused on intelligence-gathering operations and training militaries in the region to lead the fight against militants, remains the centerpiece of the American plan.

However, as the West wrestles with what to do next in Mali, a potential militant base for launching terror strikes across the region and possibly beyond, some experts say the U.S. needs to change course by putting less emphasis on a strategy that relies on the Malian army to do the heavy lifting. Instead, more should be done to bolster the standing of secular Tuaregs in the north, the key stakeholder in a region now dominated by Islamic militants such as al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb.

The Malian army, which sees the Tuaregs as its primary enemy, should be kept out of the north entirely, argues Atallah, who says the army’s history of heavy-handedness in dealing with ethnic groups in the north could drive potential allies into enemy hands.

“Everyone wants to see terrorists eliminated. Secular Tuaregs want the same thing. But they don’t want to be mistreated by Malian soldiers,” he said. “What you have now is a situation where Tuareg youth are so angry that, if left unchecked, you are forcing their hand to eventually join the wrong side, which will exacerbate the problem.”

In 2011, frustrated with their relations with the government in Bamako, secular Tuaregs founded a movement known as MNLA and rebelled against the Malian government in January 2012. By April, they had seized most of the north. They were soon pushed aside by Ansar al-Dine, an Islamist Tuareg front that aligned with al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb.

While secular Tuaregs say they want a part in the fight to liberate the north, they have “essentially been told to shut up and have been pushed to the side,” Atallah said.

Atallah isn’t the only one advocating a new approach in Mali.

Ali Soufan, a former FBI special agent who has investigated numerous terrorism cases and was the agency’s point man for interrogating captured al-Qaida members, also says the international community needs to consider coordinating with the secular Tuaregs.

“You have to focus your efforts on targeting your enemy,” said Soufan during a phone interview from New York, where he now runs his consultancy firm The Soufan Group. “In this case, if you isolate the Tuareg, you’re going to make them more oriented towards these (extremist) groups.”

Eventually, the French intervention will likely be handed over to regional African forces. And when that happens, the international community’s focus on supporting that regional force will serve as a distraction and prevent collaboration with the readiest fighting force, the local Tuaregs, according to Soufan.

“While the NATO allies are engaged in capacity-building, Islamic radicals will consolidate their hold on the north, and will likely launch opportunistic attacks on Western targets in the region,” according to a Soufan Group analysis on the crisis. “This will cause the terror threat from Mali to escalate, not diminish.”

For Soufan, a pragmatic strategy of “sanctuary management,” which would involve offensive strikes when needed while resisting costly attempts at nation-building, is what’s required.

“We have to be very realistic. Sanctuaries are all over the place,” Soufan said. “Are we trying to make these people democratic and instill the ideals of Jefferson and Washington? It is not going to work. First we have to eliminate threats.”

Meanwhile, Atallah says the next move by Islamic militants will be to blend into the population and launch a bloody insurgency.

“It’s going to be very painful for everybody,” he said. “For six months, Islamists have been making tunnels and preparing for the inevitable intervention. Moving into these towns to occupy them is going to be a piece of cake (for the French-led force). Then an insurgency starts and these towns become kill boxes.”

For the international community, the immediate strategy should focus on pressuring the junta government in Mali to step down while bringing the secular Tuareg into the fold in the north, according Atallah said.

“And you have to stop Malian troops from going north. Use anybody but Malian forces,” he said. “They couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. Despite all the training we’ve given them, this rebel force of Tuaregs last year overthrew them in two and a half months.”

While the West supports a plan to send more than 3,000 troops from Economic Organization of West African States to Mali, some experts say the roughly $500 million price tag to support the mission for a year would be better spent empowering the Tuareg.

“The Islamists would be gone in a heartbeat,” he said. “Instead we’re going to dump it on this (ECOWAS) force that is ill-prepared, all based on a half-baked plan. There’s no sense of realism.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mali-rebels-town-20130127,0,5775328.story

DIABALY, Mali — The militants came with gifts of dates, milk, peanuts, cookies and plastic prayer beads, extolling Islam and promising townspeople they wouldn't hurt them. They took over houses, unloaded truckloads of ammunition, food and water and ordered families not to run away.

They took down the national flag from the school and replaced it with a black Islamic flag. They blasted the concrete cross off a church.

They wore turbans covering their faces like masks, but spoke gently, promising to pay for any damage they caused.

When not shooting, they slept, ate and prayed.

The Al Qaeda-linked Islamic fighters seized Diabaly in a dawn assault on Jan. 14, three days after France launched attacks on militants elsewhere in Mali to destroy what it called the threat of a new terrorist state in West Africa, one capable of exporting terrorism to Europe and beyond.

The militants' assault on this central Malian town laid bare the country's weak, shambolic army, which was in danger of ceding the entire country to the extremists. The Islamists had already seized the north, where they imposed a harsh form of sharia, or Islamic law, that included the hacking off of people's hands for relatively minor offenses.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/africa/130122/malians-mali-french-intervention-islamists

“We were scared when the army left,” Hamet said. “Then the Islamists told us not to run away, that they had come for the army and the local administration, not us. They said they had come for jihad and to introduce Shariah law.

“Then I was scared again because we have heard that they cut off hands and feet,” he said, referring to reported atrocities carried out in Timbuktu and Gao, northern cities held by Islamists.

Diabaly’s mayor, Oumar Diakite, was lucky: he was out of town when the Islamists arrived, so instead they trashed his office. “The destroyed everything,” he said, surveying the broken tables and overturned chairs. Had he been there he is sure they would have killed him.

The Islamists also went on a petulant rampage through the town’s small Catholic church, smashing the large wooden crucifix, beheading a stone statue of the Virgin Mary and leaving a decapitated plastic baby Jesus on the altar.

But their reign was short. The night they arrived the French air strikes began, and by Friday the last Islamist fighters left on motorbikes after burying the bodies of their dead comrades who had to be transported to the cemetery in three pick-up trucks.

...

But pushing them into the desert is not the same as winning the war, that will take longer and require more than air raids.

“If the French are here we’re not scared, but we don’t trust the Mali army,” said Hamet who, like others, feared an Islamist resurgence. “This is not the end we need the French forces to stay here.”

all this marxism bullshit in the irrelevant in the real world; socialism is dead (outside glorious DPRK). what really matters to the developing world, at least in the middle east and north africa, is corrupt liberalism versus relatively uncorrupt islamism. the "oppose both sides and support communism" thing is just a last ditch for first worlders to make it seem like they're not defending western liberalism.

the western backed states are failing even as their people nominally support them because they're just too corrupt and useless to sustain themselves. france and its shell oil-controlled ECOWAS allies are the only thing keeping failed secular governments alive in west africa. even then islamism is slowly taking over mali anyway.

so either support france or support islam. none of this neutrality crap please, cry me a river.

that's imho at least, glad nobody from mali posts here to wave the bloody severed hand at me.

Edited by mustang19 (Jan. 27, 2013 18:14:12)