#1
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i recently had a conversation with a person about what kind of responsibility employed people have for the actions taken in the course of their employment and i was wondering what the fine folks here would make of it. this person took the position of "workers should never be blamed," which is arguably a good starting point--but then, one has to question who qualifies as a "worker." do cops and soldiers count? prison guards? what if they're guarding a concentration camp or a bunch of abused children?

one temptation is to strictly apply the sort of categories defined by labor of workers versus management--but, i personally am pretty wary of abstraction and reification, and if you look at the actual life of, say, a single-mother who manages a fast food restaurant, you're certain to see at least as much economic coercion as you do in the life of a cubicled IT or office worker.

another question is raised by those who enter a career track with laudable or neutral goals--and does so by free choice--but finds themselves subsequently forced to take work that is, from a leftist perspective, reprehensible. for example, a lawyer may go to law school to defend the indigent or sue polluting corporations, but find herself compelled to take work as a corporate counsel by the accumulation of interest payments. an actor may move to hollywood to make art, but find himself unable to pay the rent if he doesn't perform in an anti-union training video. both of these people were free to find other work before they entered their field, but subsequently narrowed their options.

for me, all of this must be taken in context with labor history--how many meals have been missed by people who refused, on principle, to scab?

as a disclaimer, i know this all sounds very liberal, and it is. individual choices are not the solution to empire and inequality, and the focus should always remain on the systems of capital and power that force these sorts of dilemmas on people in the first place. but, much as being a decent feminist means you don't call women whores, however irrelevant one person's speech is to the larger patriarchal structures that do most of the real damage to women, in my opinion part of being a decent leftist means you make an effort to avoid making a living that hurts the world. the question is: how much effort?
#2
Mike Nelson here.
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responsibility is connected with duty types of thinking, that is that morality is about imperatives, even if simply in an imperative to do what promotes happiness or something. my intuition tends to be that that's not really how moral reasoning works. i think that we can do things that are admirable and other things that are regretful and that life consists in trying to be admirable, because living a good life is good, in general. if there is some weakness that causes you to fail to act in an admirable/virtuous way then that's a disappointment but it isn't precisely any sort of responsibility/imperative and doesn't carry any sanction other than its own effects or practical responses.

i will use the example of prostitution for this. i think that prostitution is regrettable and shameful. a person that engages in prostitution might have some admirable reasons for doing this (for example, providing for themselves) and might have regretful reasons for doing this (in a certain limited case they might decide to do it instead of taking a mundane job). likewise it could be properly tragic - they might have no admirable outcomes to choose from.

i think that extends to punishment/desert, as well. insofar as we need legal sanction it shouldn't be because someone failed to do their duty or whatever, it should be because we just practically might need to isolate or reform people who do bad things because otherwise they and others will keep doing it. that is, it's regrettable if we need to jail someone for killing someone, it's not a positive function of "justice". justice in criminal cases, in terms of visiting a penalty on people just because they did something wrong, does not exist in my mind.
#3
Kurdt
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Josef V. Stalin
#4
tardy on these heaters
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Abu Umayyah ash-Sha'balli said: I asked Abu Tha'labah al-Khushani: What is your opinion about the verse "Care for yourselves." He said: I swear by Allah, I asked the one who was well informed about it; I asked the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) about it. He said: 'No, enjoin one another to do what is good and forbid one another to do what is evil. But when you see stinginess being obeyed, passion being followed, worldly interests being preferred, everyone being charmed with his opinion, then care for yourself, and leave alone what people in general are doing. For ahead of you are days which will require endurance, in which showing endurance will be like grasping live coals. The one who acts rightly during that period will have the reward of fifty men who act as he does.
#5
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the answers to all these questions and more can be found in the qur'an
#6
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +

babyfinland posted:

Abu Umayyah ash-Sha'balli said: I asked Abu Tha'labah al-Khushani: What is your opinion about the verse "Care for yourselves." He said: I swear by Allah, I asked the one who was well informed about it; I asked the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) about it. He said: 'No, enjoin one another to do what is good and forbid one another to do what is evil. But when you see stinginess being obeyed, passion being followed, worldly interests being preferred, everyone being charmed with his opinion, then care for yourself, and leave alone what people in general are doing. For ahead of you are days which will require endurance, in which showing endurance will be like grasping live coals. The one who acts rightly during that period will have the reward of fifty men who act as he does.

#7
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uh, check your premises, there are no boundaries to freedom
#8
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individualism isn't anti-communist, communism is individualism and personal responsibility
#9
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getfiscal posted:

babyfinland posted:

Abu Umayyah ash-Sha'balli said: I asked Abu Tha'labah al-Khushani: What is your opinion about the verse "Care for yourselves." He said: I swear by Allah, I asked the one who was well informed about it; I asked the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) about it. He said: 'No, enjoin one another to do what is good and forbid one another to do what is evil. But when you see stinginess being obeyed, passion being followed, worldly interests being preferred, everyone being charmed with his opinion, then care for yourself, and leave alone what people in general are doing. For ahead of you are days which will require endurance, in which showing endurance will be like grasping live coals. The one who acts rightly during that period will have the reward of fifty men who act as he does.



al-Khushani

#10
Mike Nelson here.
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i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.
#11
tardy on these heaters
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getfiscal posted:

i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.



its a qualitative statement about the affect it has on your heart, not a kindergarten sticker chart

#12
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#13
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#14
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babyfinland posted:

getfiscal posted:
i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.


its a qualitative statement about the affect it has on your heart, not a kindergarten sticker chart



then why do they quantify the number of virgins you receive in heaven?

#15
Mike Nelson here.
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babyfinland posted:

its a qualitative statement about the affect it has on your heart, not a kindergarten sticker chart

i'd blame my heart getting huge on allah but it's more of a diet thing.

#16
Kurdt
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getfiscal posted:

i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.


its covered in here i think

#17
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

then why do they quantify the number of virgins you receive in heaven?

that's figurative and means that you'll be constantly renewed with love if you believe in god. also anything else that's literal that you don't like is figurative.

#18
Kurdt
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do they have to be virgins
#19
tardy on these heaters
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

babyfinland posted:

getfiscal posted:
i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.


its a qualitative statement about the affect it has on your heart, not a kindergarten sticker chart

then why do they quantify the number of virgins you receive in heaven?



a) that's not a sound hadith, and its only been circulated by israelis and necons and is not part of canon

b) numerating things in terms of seven, seventy, seven hundred, etc. is a convention in the arabic language that translated best as "several" "several hundred" etc. the two in addition to the seventy is the most notable thing in that hadith.

e.g.

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Those evils which befell the Bani Israil shall befall my Ummah, so much so that if there were one amongst them that openly committed fornication with his mother there would be one among my Ummah who would do that too! And the Bani Israil split into seventy-two sects and my Ummah shall split into seventy-three sects. All of them will be in the Fire, except one group.” They (the Sahabah) said: “Which one is that O Rasul Allah?” Whereupon he said: “It is the one to which I and my Companions belong.”

#20
The Future is Here
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Muhammad was a merchant, he uses merchant language. All the interactions between english speakers and arab speakers were commercial in nature, the opening of the ottoman empire was about railroads and manufactured goods. So it makes sense that Arabic translated into english feels commercial, since the middle east was the sort of trading hub of the world forever
#21
The Future is Here
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As for morality and employment, I don't rightly know and I sure wish I did. I should just become a businessman and make a million dollars a day, but it makes my heart hurt to think of all the terrible things that businessmen do
#22
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babyfinland posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
babyfinland posted:
getfiscal posted:
i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.


its a qualitative statement about the affect it has on your heart, not a kindergarten sticker chart
then why do they quantify the number of virgins you receive in heaven?


a) that's not a sound hadith, and its only been circulated by israelis and necons and is not part of canon

b) numerating things in terms of seven, seventy, seven hundred, etc. is a convention in the arabic language that translated best as "several" "several hundred" etc. the two in addition to the seventy is the most notable thing in that hadith.



so it's like that "over 9000" meme from 4chan?

#23
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#24
Kurdt
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did they ever make any communism themed dungenons and dragons stuff
#25
tardy on these heaters
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

babyfinland posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
babyfinland posted:
getfiscal posted:
i've never understood how or why allah distributes experience points. like islam seems filled with things like if you are nice to one beggar then you shall receive the bounty equal to two men but if you are nice to two beggars it shall be four and i picture earnest types working out the math and being like awesome when i reach paradise i'll be a seventh level mage or whatever.


its a qualitative statement about the affect it has on your heart, not a kindergarten sticker chart
then why do they quantify the number of virgins you receive in heaven?


a) that's not a sound hadith, and its only been circulated by israelis and necons and is not part of canon

b) numerating things in terms of seven, seventy, seven hundred, etc. is a convention in the arabic language that translated best as "several" "several hundred" etc. the two in addition to the seventy is the most notable thing in that hadith.

so it's like that "over 9000" meme from 4chan?



yeah i guess

#26
Mike Nelson here.
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gyrofry posted:

did they ever make any communism themed dungenons and dragons stuff

communism is, in itself, a hobby activity for self-diagnosed autistic nerds.

#27
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gyrofry posted:

did they ever make any communism themed dungenons and dragons stuff



DUNGEON OF LUBYANKA!!!

#28
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#29
Mike Nelson here.
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tpaine posted:

they made a communist themed dungeons and dragons, it was called real dungeons and dragons, because that is what people in communist countries had to deal with everyday thanks to communism.

fucked up but true....

#30
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Your hadith look like a dishrag
#31
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You shouldn't particularly hate cops or bankers or whatever as human beings by default without knowing them, more the function itself. Likewise, you shouldn't attack the police because it's moral but because it serves some kind of purpose and advances your cause. I think I'm basically telling you to become a Marxist Robot incapable of emotion.
#32
Kurdt
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only if the cause/purpose is moral