#201
in case it wasnt already clear to anyone else, i was cracking wise, okay guys? but it turns out i kind of had a point because every time a leftist man gets all het up about his right to participate in discussions about gender, out come the thinly (or not at all) veiled attacks on sex workers. protip: if you need to say words to the effect of "i'm not attacking sex workers but", you're probably attacking sex workers, and like, that's probably not conducive to actual marxist theorising about anything.
#202
i guess youre right :) its their problem, they should deal with it on their own
#203
don't be disingenuous dude, I'm saying if you care about about gender equality and workers rights then dont use sex workers (first world or otherwise) as a strawman in your posts
#204

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

don't be disingenuous dude, I'm saying if you care about about gender equality and workers rights then dont use sex workers (first world or otherwise) as a strawman in your posts


Who is doing thus

#205
they edited their post, so nobody is doing it anymore.
#206
pretty good podcast ep on the relationship between patriarchy, sex trade, militarization, and global imperialism. unveiling the specific liberal origins of the "sex work is work!"catchphrase. The Lerner book they mention is very good i was pleased to hear it cited. make podcast listening liberals listen to it i guess? or pro pimp pro john fake leftists idk. familiar territory for a lot of us i reckon but some good specifics in there
https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/show/therednation/id/18033161d
#207
i just randomly thought about this but its odd how normalized practice of violence and light domination such as choking, slapping, verbally demeaning the partner etc is in heterosexual intercourse. talking to both men and womyn about it and its really the most common non vanilla sexual practice for a lot of people. its not ok that male on female violence during sex became simething normal and youre seen as a prude or a wuss for not buying into it. people who get aroused by demeaning their partner on the other hand think youre a weirdo for celebrating your partners body through arousal by feet or other non erotic body part. just my two cents, or as i should say my 4.20 dollars
#208
someone has been translating a magazine from weimar germany that was about what we'd now call queer or trans issues. seems like an interesting piece of pre-stonewall lgbtq history:

https://weimar-project.page/das-dritte-geschlecht/

edit: it is very much a product of its time, so it's not at all radical for today's sex/gender politics. but for 1930s germany, it's pretty radical imo. i figured people who read this thread might find it interesting.

Edited by radical_dave ()

#209

dizastar posted:

i just randomly thought about this but its odd how normalized practice of violence and light domination such as choking, slapping, verbally demeaning the partner etc is in heterosexual intercourse.


there is about a hundred percent chance this is because of pornography

#210
i dated a woman once who wanted me to choke her. long story short,
#211
let me talk to her
#212

dizastar posted:

normalized practice of violence


agree the pornification and normalization of violence in sex is problematic, particularly the expectation of its inclusion by default.

not sure about hetsex context, but i believe there is some nuance to the issue in how care/trust can be articulated through varying forms of eroticism and play with power dynamics.

while sexuality is not a neutral space outside of our inherited worlds and cultures, it can have dynamics that are more contained and defined by a particular relational context. i suspect there is a healthy way to engage with this that is not that different from how one engages in martial arts with a trusted sparring partner. a flow between care, power, theatrics, affect, struggle; feeling out the limits and forms of ones own strength in relation to another. this seems very far apart from a situation of actual violence one might encounter.

certainly there are people in martial arts practices that seek out opportunities to abuse, shame, control, hurt others... but that doesn't change the fact that there are situated ways to engage with violence as a form of play/self-development/relating. to clarify, i'm referring to the corporeal aspect of this, not the verbal/demeaning aspect, which still seems suspect however i look at it.

#213
The verbal part of it can be likened to the ancient oriental art of comedy roasts, where
#214

Belphegor posted:

where


you touch yourself at night,

#215
#216
https://onthewomanquestion.com/2020/06/19/the-gender-debate-a-marxist-feminist-perspective/

One paragraph I particularly like in this is:

Sex and gender are different; but they are inextricably linked. Once the economic need to control the reproductive labour of women was identified, it was reinforced by socially constructed gender roles to ensure future compliance. As such, the oppression of women can be roughly divided into two categories: material sex oppression which directly controls female reproductive labour (forced marriage, female genital mutilation, abortion etc); and ideological sex oppression which controls females more generally through gender roles (relegation to the domestic sphere, poorer job prospects due to perceived inferiority etc). Female oppression is based on sex and enforced by gender — and, as gender roles were designed to subjugate the female sex specifically, femininity is only oppressive to them. Gender cannot be divorced from the sex it was designed to oppress — it can only be abolished.
#217
Going to go out on a limb and say gender can do things other than “be abolished”
#218

cars posted:

Going to go out on a limb and say gender can do things other than “be abolished”


hey pal. not reading things properly is my posting brand

#219
That’s exactly why I always read things properly, Petrol-san.
#220
on a completely unrelated note, here’s the top & only comment on what pogfan posted

#221
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Behold The “Non-Neurotic” Man
#222
#223

cars posted:

That’s exactly why I always read things properly, Petrol-san.


And I, in turn, did not click through and read the whole article.

#224
returning to my lathe
#225
Looks like the average active OF account makes $180/month and the majority make less than $145/month
#226
This is the worst thread.
#227

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

This is the worst thread.


#228
As the lathe turns
#229
I think some parts of this thread are Bad and other parts are Good, and we have the Marxist-Leninist weapon of criticism and self-criticism, we can get rid of a bad style and keep the good. I think it’s better to discuss these specific issues than not discuss them since they are areas of disagreement where engagement seems to be important and meaningful for all of us powerful forum-raised beasts of the Web, and people can then feel the objectively good thrill of arguing for their new beliefs like they always held them. This is also one of those topics where this thread will never really go away, it will just turn itself into a disjointed pass-agg sniper run across different discussions on here. And Hell, Same. Also I have a post itt that’s a few months and votes away from the big ol +++++ so no gas.
#230
the problem is that there is nothing radical in sex/gender politics in a society totally inundated by images and identity. images and identity will always dominate a society's substrata and so the more worthwhile critique is of images and identity rather than what lies beneath. i am thinking specifically of lukacs who states that

The hegemony of the bourgeoisie really does embrace the whole of society; it really does attempt to organise the whole of society in its own interests (and in this it has had some success). To achieve this, it was forced both to develop a coherent theory of economics, politics and society (which in itself presupposes and amounts to a 'Weltanschauung'), and also to make conscious and sustain its faith in its own mission to control and organise society. The tragic dialectics of the bourgeoisie can be seen in the fact that it is not only desirable but essential for it to clarify its own class interests on every particular issue (H&CC, p. 65).



so in my reading of that, the core of revolutionary dialectical critique is on the core itself. in sex/gender politics, that core consists of the images and identities of sex and gender which have been learned and hypostatized in general social consciousness. in other words, it is useless to harp on some first world bourgeois onlyfans profile ranking when one could emphasize and critique the conditions that that ultimately taught that person to participate in prostitution instead. those conditions, in my view, are not related to sex or gender, but instead to a larger social web of particular images and particular identities. sex and gender are secondary and, while their critique perhaps is somewhat immanent, it only is immanent secondarily.

#231
the other problem is that this thread has been almost entirely garbage from the outset and while there may or may not be worthwhile posts here, crystallize them and move on because the thread is shit and should be seen as a stain on an otherwise dazzling website
#232
maybe what’s really radical is the lathe you make along the way
#233
in principle it's right and proper that a community like ours discuss issues of sex and gender but in practice it always involves a lot of really bad opinions and circular arguments about pornography and other sex work because even the most otherwise-principled leftist men perceive those as the central political questions concerning non-cismen and not, yknow, how to end all the many other forms of oppression and violence directed at them. but go off kings
#234
yes, this is a bad thread. Everyone should have the right opinions on these things! Can't believe all these other men don't get it already.

All of reality in late capitalist culture lusts to become an image for
its own security.
Donna Haraway, ‘Teddy Bear Patriarchy’



If you post in this thread saying 'this thread sucks' and nothing else then I'm forced to assume you are already wise and correct.

On the matter of drugs, sex, media and food consumption there are broad masses of people, myself included, who have no leadership when it comes to these questions. I don't know what relationship ethics should have with communist politics. Clearly the communists of the past had their ideas: party members should be examples to others, people who lapse should be criticized and learn from their errors, make amends etc. The situation now seems to be to avoid these topics. If we want to talk about 'otherwise principled people' then I am surprised that otherwise curious and thoughtful people think we can't have these discussions here.

#235

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

how to end all the many other forms of oppression and violence directed at them


Alright, how do we do it? Surely along the way we will have to organize, and address the ethical expectations for political agents?

#236
Something like half of men consume porn, which is commodified rape, on at least a weekly basis. Like obviously this has serious effects on society, on organizing, and achieving liberation. There used to be a mass movement against porn and prostituting women, but it was suppressed, and it is important to understand why
#237
speaking of other forms of oppression, i cleaned at the domestic violence shelter. nobody calls it by the name on the front of the building though - just the women's shelter, another instance of casual conversation being more revealing than the given description, sort of like how the term "officer-involved shooting" exists because it's a phrase made up by cops and news anchors. made me depressed since it's a rundown old building with peeling green paint and a toy section that i re-arrange every time i'm there since a lot of kids also come. I'm not too sure if people being trafficked or in some other situation like that stay there. At about the same time this was happening I reconnected with an old friend of mine who shared that she was getting paid to do phone sex, something she doesn't really want to do but needs money on the side. she's actually against the idea that people should be allowed to pay for any kind of "sex" at all and i know she's influenced by social media communists and reads a lot of news about sex trafficking busts and stuff like that. a lot of the job also includes nonsexual emotionally draining things like playing some sort of cheery girlfriend for guys with marriage problems, which isn't the idea you normally get from something involving sex work, but that's the reality of what these male clients are generating in "demand" for women in these jobs - someone to fulfill that potentially abusive gender dynamic with boundaries dictated by the market.

the other component besides money is the fact that she was socialized into it as what a woman should be doing, which i won't go into besides saying her mom was a stripper at clubs and she looked up to that, among a lot of other grooming-adjacent things that seem to happen to girls when they go through middle school. almost seems like this type of sexual expression is just a "thing" you do, like if your parents had a career you'll end up doing the same thing because you know what the beat of that kinda life is, or if you're sexually attractive you're supposed to act like this, etc, a logic that is definitely a lot more personal and "hereditary" in a social sense than the state and economic system. male-subordinated sex trades have existed in state socialism consistently. Obviously phone sex probably won't force her into a shelter or something, but besides caring for her wellbeing i do think about the type of social fabric being woven as people grow up into this stuff.

that's relevant also to the fact that resources to protect people against men - ideologically, mentally, physically, etc - aren't really always up to snuff, and will probably require people become political actors in the same way communists view the working-class as needing to be a self contained force. this is also where Marxist theory goes dry when all it does is look at "institutions" and "influences" from the culture industry or whatever instead of the day-to-day capacity of people to engage in politics. in countries where 80 hour workweeks, illiteracy, or migrant labor is common among the proletariat, there are divisions in party work to other classes and barriers to political life from the people under those conditions. why don't we look at domestic violence, dysfunctional interpersonal relationships, atomization, unstable work hours, abuse, trauma, porn brain etc the same way in a country where it's apparently extremely common? Anyway that's all the theory I have for today, just a few observations.

Edited by serafiym ()

#238
~
#239

Belphegor posted:

Flying_horse_in_saudi_arabia posted:

how to end all the many other forms of oppression and violence directed at them

Alright, how do we do it? Surely along the way we will have to organize, and address the ethical expectations for political agents?


Of course.

#240

Belphegor posted:

yes, this is a bad thread. Everyone should have the right opinions on these things! Can't believe all these other men don't get it already.


It's not a question of lack of knowledge or wrong opinions so much as the attitude expressed at certain points in this thread, that makes me want to jump out a window. The cardinal rule of participating in feminist topics as a man is "let women take the lead, listen and take their experiences seriously before you open your mouth, don't make it all about you."

Men are restricted to a fundamentally limited perspective in this area and are absolutely going to be challenged in these kinds of conversations. We need to show patience and respect when confronted with things that make us uncomfortable and challenge us. We must be, in short, Very Careful. Instead we get the Lathe Wizard dramatically storming out in disgust that a woman dared to speak about her experience with sex work. Seeing that filled me with a deep despair about the character of this community. I really wanted to expect better.

So please understand that's my perspective when I treat this thread as a poisoned well and make shitty lathe jokes if I post in it at all. I mean it as no judgement on you. For those few great posts that were made, thank you for your sacrifice.