dipshit420 posted:What is the deal with molly crabapple again? all i know is she's a writer for VICE, known arch-nemesis of the rhizzone
She's an artist based in NYC who came to some prominence during Occupy Wall Street. She has also been involved in Middle East peace struggles. She was harassed by a number of conspiracy theorists. I've been trying to get her to post here so we can bury the hatchet.
glomper_stomper posted:doxxing is only useful for outing people who wish to remain anonymous or pseudonymous, which doesn't generally apply to members of the capitalist class who are mostly very open about publicizing a carefully managed narrative of their careers and real-world identities. since the process itself very rarely employs "hacking," it's mostly intelligence and guesswork--energy that could be spent more reasonably on digging up dirt and exposing their acts.
publishing phone numbers and shit wouldn't even dent cointelpro types or media personalities who basically serve the same role at this point. those people are protected by the state and the press, which will throw the weight of established popular support and force of law at their feet. this is why only the most vulnerable people in precarious situations are actually affected by doxxing.
hi glomp, ive thought about this a bit and i think you're thinking about it from a too narrow field - i.e. from what happened to comrade discipline i.e. the outing of someones rl identity. im thinking bigger than that, the use of peoples personal information for revolutionary aims (all hypothetical of course and definatly not for now obvs!)
no one wants their personal information published on the internet (addresses, phone numbers, bank details etc etc) and this applies as much to the bourgiousie as anyone (lthough has a special relevance for the aparatus of class oppression: cops, judiciary, intelligence services, politicians, prison staff etc; because these people are targets of hate in general by the masses). I dont know how much interaction you have with rich people, but a constant theme i notice is fear, rich people and people who work directly as elements of oppression are generally pretty fearful e.g. "I didnt feel safe because there were homeless/poor people/young people/gypsies/proles around when i was walking home" something that would be laughable to us is a source of great fear to them. This is their class conciousness working, they are afraid of poor people because they are rich. we want them to be affraid of us, becaue its either that or were afraid of them
the use of revolutionary terror in the C21st (with its huge volumes of information and data) to suppress counter-revolution and the bougiousie in general will surely involve the publishing for the proletariat to see, lists of wanted criminals including their personal details, addresses, faces (doxxing them) - in the proletariat revolution this is basically the bougiousie and the most reactionary forces in general; as well as being used as a tool to frighten potentially reactive elements away from actual reaction, no different from hanging a bunch of kulaks in the town square to end a kulak uprising and prevent future uprisings. good tool to oppress the bourgiousie and smash counter-revolutionary forces imo
Lenin, telegram, August 9, 1918 posted:To the Gubernia Executive Committee, Penza
A copy for Yevgenia Bogdanovna Bosch
Your telegram received. Essential to organise a reinforced guard of selected and reliable people, to carry out a campaign of ruthless mass terror against the kulaks, priests and whiteguards; suspects to be shut up in a detention camp outside the city. Get the office working.
Telegraph fulfilment.
Lenin
Chairman, Council of People’s Commissars
getfiscal posted:I've been trying to get her to post here so we can bury the hatchet.
This is a good idea, I think if we can get more VICE employees to commune with us we might be able to affect real change in global politik
swampman posted:are you proposing that we start keeping a black book? a public database of capitalist criminals and their misdeeds?
no need, the capitalists already made one: http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/
buuuuuuut i think its more important to focus on like getting more than 3 marxists in a room together following the correct party line rather than jumping the gun here
also I feel a bit squeemish making that last post tbh
thirdplace posted:imo it's more practical for the radical left to make common cause with liberals in their attempts to establish doxxing as taboo because revolutionary terror is a distant and uncertain future while doxxing vulnerable people who rely on pseudonymity to protect against retaliation by employers and/or hordes of reactionary internet addicts is happening right now
doxxing will never become "taboo" because as it is its just a form of oppressionary violence directed against members of the proletariat who speak out against oppression. Its violence and the threat of violence to keep people in line
we post anonymously because we are living in fear, that isn't going to go away just by making something "taboo" All forms of violence are "taboo" and that doesnt stop them happening
You might as well say that you want to ally with the liberals to make violence taboo because revolutionary violence is long in the future while violence against vulnnerable people is occuring right now not seeing that the state is an instrument of violence
no common cause with the liberals thank you very much
Keeping a "Black Book" of crimes is useful for some future revolutionary tribunal, but most of these crimes are right now legal, or can be defended successfully in court or through lobbying government officials.
It's important to broadcast these crimes as they happen, but I think more importantly, there should be an active effort to educate people on the essentials. I read a good book on Marxist philosophy a few weeks ago, and was really impressed at how clear and approachable it was. I could imagine sharing it with almost anyone. Information and education were once high priority for Marxists. Now, it all seems relegated to discussion groups, where we go over pretty old and unrelatable stuff for a guy coming in just off the street. The thing I always appreciated about the old LF was the ease with which I, a lurker, could learn about many things by accessing helpful threads. Maybe we should start an educational outreach? It sounds more helpful than "doxxing" people who already have control over the means by which they would be (hopefully) disciplined.
also i have loads of white privilege
. Just didint want a belief that as something is currently primarily used to shit on oppressed people that the same or related tactic does not have a place for the masses to fight back
Edited by tears ()
Ben Norton, a writer for Salon, was caught on Twitter recently having started warming up to the PSL for instance - but if you look through his tweets a year ago, he was posting photos of "Stalinists" at pro-Palestinian rallies and saying they should be excluded from the group. This is cop behavior that any activist should be alerted to. It also signals that, without a very insightful mea culpa, he is simply a careerist who is seeking to suck the blood from actual struggles to line his pockets, also behavior that any activist should be alerted to. A lot of people don't know that these people so brazenly waltzing into their group discussions are actually cops in disguise; they are thrilled by the attention and hope to get positive media coverage.
Sort of like how letting people know when a convicted serial rapist moves into the neighborhood, this could be a way of protecting people who are actually putting their necks on the line to do good work.
written by Animethinktank? nm, its all of us
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Petrol posted:dipshit420 posted:
What is the deal with molly crabapple again? all i know is she's a writer for VICE, known arch-nemesis of the rhizzone
https://medium.com/@animethinktank/molly-crabapple-vice-buzzfeed-exposed-a-syrian-war-journalist-to-terrorist-reprisals-in-an-dd90ff08265b
i HATE pysops, they always delete my posts on the bbs
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tears posted:You might as well say that you want to ally with the liberals to make violence taboo because revolutionary violence is long in the future while violence against vulnnerable people is occuring right now not seeing that the state is an instrument of violence
no common cause with the liberals thank you very much
but violence is an ancient phenomenon whose standards have been more or less settled while doxing is new and inchoate. some people think it's totally okay, some people think it's bad, and a shitload of people have never thought of it one way or another. if you try to nuance some kind of "okay if you're punching down" stance it's just going to enable the crabapples of the world--after all, she was just outing a genocide denier and serial twitter-abuser! but if it's bad and always bad then sure, yes, of course it will still happen, but those who use it will incur the same kinds of costs that they do when they get caught truncheoning protesters and shit
but maybe i'm just biased because i'm in a bourgoise profession, would be quite vulnerable to it if i were important or radical enough for anyone to take the trouble, and was real fuckin bugged out by what happened with displine
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It won't surprise me when, after a few years, we are all prevented from operating under pseudonyms on these platforms. There is also a large-scale effort to turn these platforms into essential infrastructure. I have applied for jobs before where they were upset and concerned about my lack of presence on social media. This will intensify. Earning power will be correlated to your openness and availability on social media, where you are kept in a Foucaultian cage 24/7, expected to share every single aspect of your life with major corporations for a profit. It is, in fact, a very sophisticated and nuanced way of getting people to buy in. It's a confidence trick, a protection racket.
I think this stage of communication will be so penetrating and destructive that I'd like to use the last remaining twilight of this "stage" of the internet - and the "Left" more generally - to make in-person connections and "meatspace" plans for future organizing and alternative discussion/communication mediums. Which we will need to come up with.
tears posted:well i reccon my opinions in this thread are pretty unformed and naieve combined with a lack of really analysis of what its like to actually have some of this shit hapen to urself, probs because im at much less risk which has obviously made me a bit blase about the whole thing so ill stop making unthoughtout posts
you midwifed a decent conversation (including the great post directly above this one) out of what otherwise would have been an utterly pointless thread and have nothing to apologize for
thirdplace posted:and have nothing to apologize for
like, that I know of. if you like to punch babies that's still not cool imo
i call it the prisonnet
The wife of a police officer sits all day harassing and doxxing her "haters" (BLM activists) while she spews out racist garbage, and somehow she labels herself the true victim.
Obviously, the wife of a police officer is untouchable. She posts photos of her mansion, her gardens, etc. The BBC article reports that the police department already know about it, and don't seem to care. Meanwhile, she sends naked photos of her victims to their employers. The victims, people of color and oppressed nations, lose as a result. The BBC article says quite a few stepped forward to say they'd been fired because of it. Also, the hate campaigns go on for many months. Hard to say it doesn't smell of coordinated law enforcement efforts to harass activists.
Edited by MarianneSadd ()
MarianneSadd posted:Doxxing seems to be only useful for the ruling class. Those who feel comfortable politically operating under their own names (or known stage names) are ones who appeal to the powers that be, either those who are not very active or listened to, or have bad politics.
Keeping a "Black Book" of crimes is useful for some future revolutionary tribunal, but most of these crimes are right now legal, or can be defended successfully in court or through lobbying government officials.
It's important to broadcast these crimes as they happen, but I think more importantly, there should be an active effort to educate people on the essentials. I read a good book on Marxist philosophy a few weeks ago, and was really impressed at how clear and approachable it was. I could imagine sharing it with almost anyone. Information and education were once high priority for Marxists. Now, it all seems relegated to discussion groups, where we go over pretty old and unrelatable stuff for a guy coming in just off the street. The thing I always appreciated about the old LF was the ease with which I, a lurker, could learn about many things by accessing helpful threads. Maybe we should start an educational outreach? It sounds more helpful than "doxxing" people who already have control over the means by which they would be (hopefully) disciplined.
epic thisery
MarianneSadd posted:In a way, I think it's important to remember blacklisted and silenced people by their ideas and not by themselves as individuals. It's important to have a lack of ego in this regard. This is about a nobody vs. a somebody... a nobody has nothing to lose, but a somebody does. The ruling class is constantly trying to drag you kicking and screaming into somebody-ness, whether this is through Facebook, Twitter, Google Accounts, etc.
this is a critical point, and worth noting that (except for the social media twist) it's exactly the approach that was used by (e.g.) the west german state against the RAF (or "Baader-Meinhof" as the depoliticizing/personalizing/psychologizing approach invariably substituted).
MarianneSadd posted:I think this stage of communication will be so penetrating and destructive that I'd like to use the last remaining twilight of this "stage" of the internet - and the "Left" more generally - to make in-person connections and "meatspace" plans for future organizing and alternative discussion/communication mediums. Which we will need to come up with.
I think this is absolutely true, and I also think this is slowly being recognized in some places... but not very many
MarianneSadd posted:In a way, I think it's important to remember blacklisted and silenced people by their ideas and not by themselves as individuals. It's important to have a lack of ego in this regard. This is about a nobody vs. a somebody... a nobody has nothing to lose, but a somebody does. The ruling class is constantly trying to drag you kicking and screaming into somebody-ness, whether this is through Facebook, Twitter, Google Accounts, etc.
It won't surprise me when, after a few years, we are all prevented from operating under pseudonyms on these platforms. There is also a large-scale effort to turn these platforms into essential infrastructure. I have applied for jobs before where they were upset and concerned about my lack of presence on social media. This will intensify. Earning power will be correlated to your openness and availability on social media, where you are kept in a Foucaultian cage 24/7, expected to share every single aspect of your life with major corporations for a profit. It is, in fact, a very sophisticated and nuanced way of getting people to buy in. It's a confidence trick, a protection racket.
I think this stage of communication will be so penetrating and destructive that I'd like to use the last remaining twilight of this "stage" of the internet - and the "Left" more generally - to make in-person connections and "meatspace" plans for future organizing and alternative discussion/communication mediums. Which we will need to come up with.
what types of jobs were those if i may ask? Facebook is complaining that not enough people share personal stuff for their handlers, instead sharing links
Edited by Urbandale ()
animedad posted:MarianneSadd posted:In a way, I think it's important to remember blacklisted and silenced people by their ideas and not by themselves as individuals. It's important to have a lack of ego in this regard. This is about a nobody vs. a somebody... a nobody has nothing to lose, but a somebody does. The ruling class is constantly trying to drag you kicking and screaming into somebody-ness, whether this is through Facebook, Twitter, Google Accounts, etc.
It won't surprise me when, after a few years, we are all prevented from operating under pseudonyms on these platforms. There is also a large-scale effort to turn these platforms into essential infrastructure. I have applied for jobs before where they were upset and concerned about my lack of presence on social media. This will intensify. Earning power will be correlated to your openness and availability on social media, where you are kept in a Foucaultian cage 24/7, expected to share every single aspect of your life with major corporations for a profit. It is, in fact, a very sophisticated and nuanced way of getting people to buy in. It's a confidence trick, a protection racket.
I think this stage of communication will be so penetrating and destructive that I'd like to use the last remaining twilight of this "stage" of the internet - and the "Left" more generally - to make in-person connections and "meatspace" plans for future organizing and alternative discussion/communication mediums. Which we will need to come up with.what types of jobs were those if i may ask? Facebook is complaining that not enough people share personal stuff for their handlers, instead sharing links
I was denied an admin assistant job and told it was cuz the background check couldn't find social media under my name.
Edited by getfiscal ()