#1
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so like whats lumpenproletariat really about? i mean i get the general gist but considering todays proletariat (or labor aristocracy whichever you prefer) the whole thing about lumpens being the most aggressive and more likely to change sides makes me wonder how it applies to these good current days. also what actually constitues a lumpen? someone somewhere explained lumpens as being unorganizable proletariat like whores or people depending on rich throwing them some crumbs like homeless panhandlers im not sure would these apply to modern day because homeless disregarding maybe the craziest ones seem plenty organized with their sewer cities and metro villages and what ive seen here in finland they usually are the most radical leftist (having drunk with them on couple of occasions which to me means talking about stalin and how kawaii he is). one interesting little essay i read was about black panthers being unsuccesful because it accepted lumpens in the party and didnt like try to reform or something i guess someone else here has read the thing. TIA
#2
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homeless people being organised in terms of panhandling isnt the same as being politically organised.
#3
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Gibbonstrength posted:

homeless people being organised in terms of panhandling isnt the same as being politically organised.



crap, why didnt anyone tell me? ive been eatin from the trash can for nothin?

#4
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You have already been eating from the trash can all of the time. (stand silently staring at you for a minute and turn and walk out)
#5
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +

troolari posted:

one interesting little essay i read was about black panthers being unsuccesful because it accepted lumpens in the party and didnt like try to reform or something i guess someone else here has read the thing. TIA

https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-1/red-papers-2/franklin.htm

Lenin violently condemns those Bolsheviks who disassociate themselves from this by “proudly and smugly declaring ’we are not anarchists, thieves, robbers, we are superior to all this.”


Mao’s basic analysis of the lumpenproletariat and of their possible role in the revolution is clear and simple:

Apart from all these other classes, there is the fairly large lumpenproletariat, made up of peasants who have lost their land and handicraftsmen who cannot get work. They lead the most precarious existence of all . . . .One of China’s difficult problems is how to handle these people, Brave fighters but apt to be destructive, they can become a revolutionary force if given proper guidance. (“Analysis of the Classes in Chinese Society”).

#6
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +++++
the problem isn't that the lumpenproletariat isn't potentially radical, it is more that it's position outside the production process tends to make it opportunist and therefore apt to radically shift between adventurism or collaboration. like a street youth may well have extreme views, but they could be recruited into a fascist street gang or like pick fights with cops when it is dangerous to do so. this doesn't even mean that lumpens can't be part of an organization, like anything else it just means they have to demonstrate they are willing to work in a smart way. it might be true that a lot of black organizations got destroyed by links to crime but like look at what happened to black america as a whole too. it wasn't the fact that they tried to manage rackets that made them lose, basically any radical organization tries to manage or suppress rackets (look at FARC).
#7
[account deactivated]
#8
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thx swampman n getfiscal. really illuminating stuff. i wonder where bakunin got the idea that someone outside of the production process could be seen as more revolutionary than the proletariat (i know he cited farmers having history of insurrections or smth). maybe he thinks they preserve some kind of unique class consciousness due to not being submitted to the logic of capitalist accumulation, but thatd be bullshit. marx himself never did illuminate on the matter, its just old man grumbling about the revolutions failure in france, guess latter theoreticians have molded the concept a tad more, since i dont think marx ever explained about them being unique class because of their relative distance to the production progress, but i digress. lumpens are prowling the streets of finland in a group called "soldiers of odin" . protecting our untainted swedish-slavic-mongol blood
#9
UNUSUALY COOL
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its you
#10
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i love lump
#11
Occupied Aztlan
Post rating: +
An important thing to note when talking about the panthers and organizing lumpen is that they introduced a reading of the class unique to socialist tendencies. I highly recommend reading their actual writings. Too often our conception of the panthers focuses on their strong activist work while neglecting their theoretical innovations. Can you imagine socialists today trying to form an organization like the Young Patriots?
#12
Poronto
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i dont think its that useful to talk about lumpenproles in this day and age
#13
Occupied Aztlan
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why, its still a class that exists
#14
Poronto
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Urbandale posted:

why, its still a class that exists



so is Generation X or Richard Florida's Creative Class but we dont talk abouit them much

#15
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Well now look who's consistently erasing class
#16
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littlegreenpills posted:

Urbandale posted:

why, its still a class that exists

so is Generation X or Richard Florida's Creative Class but we dont talk abouit them much



Generation X isn't a class

#17
Poronto
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TheIneff posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

Urbandale posted:

why, its still a class that exists

so is Generation X or Richard Florida's Creative Class but we dont talk abouit them much

Generation X isn't a class



that depends on what the meaning of "is" is

#18
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Degeneration X is a class.
#19
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Keven posted:

Degeneration X is a class.


#20
Occupied Aztlan
Post rating: +

littlegreenpills posted:

Urbandale posted:

why, its still a class that exists

so is Generation X or Richard Florida's Creative Class but we dont talk abouit them much



but lumpen are still baked into the fabric of the us economy and generations largely arent. its the largely-binational (chican@ + new afrikan) labor force that is no longer being tapped but processed into the prison and parole system or shot in the dome by some kid picking up a stray chopper in chicago. not talking about something much doesnt mean it goes away.

#21
Poronto
Post rating: ~

Urbandale posted:

littlegreenpills posted:

Urbandale posted:

why, its still a class that exists

so is Generation X or Richard Florida's Creative Class but we dont talk abouit them much

but lumpen are still baked into the fabric of the us economy and generations largely arent. its the largely-binational (chican@ + new afrikan) labor force that is no longer being tapped but processed into the prison and parole system or shot in the dome by some kid picking up a stray chopper in chicago. not talking about something much doesnt mean it goes away.



ok fair enough

#22
Kurdt
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wave upon wave of demented avengers / march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream