#41
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c_man posted:

RedMaistre posted:

c_man posted:

if you dont think an increase in public racist outbursts isnt a reason for people to have legitimate concern for their safety you've nuts

No one was denying that, but it is unclear, at least from the articles linked, how Wolf stepping down will improve anyone's safety.

literally anything that isn't just shrugging their shoulders as nazis get bolder? it shows that they are willing to take drastic measures, and unseating a university president is a strong message. it's not going to end racist violence but thats quite a tall order to put on the population of a university town.



Then why this, of all things they could do, since doing anything is evidently better than nothing?

This to me is sending a strong message to racists through drastic measures:

"Instead of cowering, the Lumbees had assembled about a mile away. Small groups of armed Lumbee indians, about 500 in total, fanned out across the highway and began to encircle the Klansmen.
As the song finished and the rally was to begin, Sanford Locklear walked up to Cole and began arguing with him. Words became shoves and tempers rose. Neill Lowery had seen enough. He leveled his shotgun at his hip and blasted out the floodlight. The field went dark.

The Lumbees began firing into the air and yelling their warhoops as they charged the field. The nerve of the Klansmen broke and they fell into complete panic.
The Klansmen dropped their guns and scrambled for their cars. Some had brought their wives and children with them, who wailed in fear as dark-faced Lumbee milled around their cars and pointed flashlights at them.

James Cole, the Grand Dragon himself, was in such a panic that he ran into a nearby swamp, abandoning his wife and "white womanhood" in the process. Cole's wife, Carolyn, also in a panic, drove her car into a ditch. After a few minutes several Lumbee helped push her car back onto the road.

"The only thing they left behind was their stuff and their families."
- Littleturtle

The state patrol, led by Sheriff McLeod, had set up camp about a mile away. McLeod intentionally waited until the shooting started because he didn't want to be accused of defending the Klan by showing up early. He organized his men to search the bushes for Klansmen who were hiding, and then escorted them out of the county.
Afterward the police tossed a couple tear-gas grenades into the field to disperse the crowd. The battle was over.

Four people suffered minor injuries from falling shotgun pellets. One Klansman was arrested for public drunkenness.
One Klansman cursed a Lumbee who was blocking the road. The Lumbee punched him through the open car window.

The victorious Lumbee had collected the robes and banners that the Klansmen had left behind. They then held their own "Klan parade" through the town of Maxton. Some rode in cars, other marched. The parade ended with a bonfire of Klan material in Pembroke. Catfish Cole was hung in effigy.
The large, captured Klan banner was taken back to the VFW convention in Charlotte, where Lumbee posed in front of it for pictures.

Newspapers praised the Lumbee and mocked the Klan. James Catfish Cole was prosecuted, convicted, and served a two-year sentence for inciting a riot.
The Klan ceased to exist in Robeson County until 1984."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/01/17/826081/-The-day-the-Klan-messed-with-the-wrong-people

...While asking other people to fire a university president with vague or non-existent policy measures to address the problem of racism signals desperation rather than strength. The racists themselves, since they are not affected by it, will not learn anything from the experience. Presumably, people who make swastikas out of human feces were not planning on running colleges to begin with, and are thus not intimidated when a high profile education administrator who is not actually connected to them is forced to resign because of a PR campaign.

Edited by RedMaistre ()

#42
Post rating: +
so you would wait until the klan is operating openly, maybe had a few lynchings, before taking action, for more interesting historical drama? the point of this is very much to keep the klan underground
#43
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But they aren't taking any action at all against the klan, the nazis, or whoever were the perpetrators of these instances. Hence my confusion.
#44
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damn! i bet all those black people wish they had some of yall smart crackers around to tell them how to really get shit done!!!!!
#45
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RedMaistre posted:

But they aren't taking any action at all against the klan, the nazis, or whoever were the perpetrators of these instances. Hence my confusion.


c_man posted:

the point of this is very much to keep the klan underground


#46
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c_man posted:

RedMaistre posted:

But they aren't taking any action at all against the klan, the nazis, or whoever were the perpetrators of these instances. Hence my confusion.

c_man posted:

the point of this is very much to keep the klan underground




...Not taking action against racists keeps them underground?

#47
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very publicly demanding (through organization and unseating well connected people concerned with PR) that work be done to keep them underground is "nothing"?
#48
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c_man posted:

very publicly demanding (through organization and unseating well connected people concerned with PR) that work be done to keep them underground is "nothing"?



Which brings me back to my question:

"What would they want a new president to do differently if Wolf was replaced?"

#49
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running around with guns doesn't do very much when they're not organized publicly (like e.g. the police are)
#50
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RedMaistre posted:

Which brings me back to my question:

"What would they want a new president to do differently if Wolf was replaced?"


i dunno dogg! maybe its in one of the articles nobody read!

#51
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maybe something like some sort of criminal charges for public racism? esp when they know all about it!
#52
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In that interview I linked, Butler mentioned "student organizations and people who are already asking for similar things like that (policy changes)" but It was unclear which ones he had in mind (i am presuming he wasn't referring to the grad students, whose demands were economic, not specifically racial). Hence my confusion.
#53
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it sounds like you already knew the answer to your question
#54
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c_man posted:

maybe something like some sort of criminal charges for public racism? esp when they know all about it!



I haven't seen that demand listed in any of the originally linked articles, while the story here portrays the administration as co-operating with the apprehension of the perp, publicly condemning such behavior,etc:

"In the statement, the Office of the Chancellor thanked LBC Royalty Court members for supporting one another and immediately reporting racist behavior to MUPD. MU students’ willingness to speak with MUPD helped identify the suspect, it stated.

“Racism and all prejudice is heinous, insidious and damaging to Mizzou,” it read. “It hurts students’ education and experience including their mental health and academic achievement. That is why all of us must commit to changing the culture at this university.”

According to a letter posted by LBC on Twitter, at 1 a.m. a white man who was presumably drunk was walking on Conley Avenue toward Traditions Plaza. He then walked on to the stage and wouldn’t leave when asked. He then “stumbled off the stage,” and said “these niggers are getting aggressive with me.”

The incident prompted outcry from students, administration, other MU community members and students from other schools on Twitter.

Chancellor R. Bowen Loftin, who has been criticized for his reaction to previous incidents, tweeted: “Last night Traditions Plaza-built to celebrate our oneness-was a venue for racism and hate. LBC Homecoming Court was targeted.”

#55
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yes, i too read the article, and the article says nothing about charges being brought, which, unlike the president saying things, could actually be some sort of deterrent
#56
Occupied Aztlan
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the worst thing about this forum is that it steeps itself in shit so frequently that the posters here are literally refusing to talk about anything else
#57
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oh wow it turns out that black people know what systematic racism is after all! holy fucking shit, i for one am surprised as hell, i thought these were a bunch of privileged liberal sjw millennial babies unlike me, the strong white catholic who is really smart
#58
Occupied Aztlan
Post rating: ~
theres a demand the president and chancellor be replaced because the administration has been actively hostile to students for a few months now. he hit some BLM protesters with his car ffs. the presidents statements are merely a reaction to the initial protests against the chancellor, an attempt to mollify while doing as little as possible

Edited by Urbandale ()

#59
Post rating: ~

c_man posted:

oh wow it turns out that black people know what systematic racism is after all!holy fucking shit, i for one am surprised as hell, i thought these were a bunch of privileged liberal sjw millennial babies unlike me, the strong white catholic who is really smart



“Systematic oppression is because you don’t believe that you have the equal opportunity for success" --Tim Wolf

....Eh?

That single line tells me more than anything else why he personally would be the object of so much outrage, particularly because it was likely not the first time he expressed (or for that matter, acted upon) such sentiments, merely the first time he got caught saying them in public.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Edited by RedMaistre ()

#60
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Urbandale posted:

yeah racism is a first world problem good post



actually racism IS literally a first world problem. the first world is FULL of problems!!!

#61
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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  • most third world countries are extremely racially homogenous
#62
[account deactivated]
#63
political car tune
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chemsex-addiction-health_5637e828e4b00a4d2e0b9707
#64
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In the interest of having all the relevant information in one place, here the entirety of Johnathan Butler's letter explaining his reasoning for going on hunger strike:

https://www.facebook.com/Butler.L.Jonathan/posts/10206054956185385?pnref=story
#65
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These students are probably unspeakable noobs and I feel it's reasonable for me to confirm that based off of someone posting a Facebook status update about their hunger strike.
#66
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well, the president stepped down
#67
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Maybe he can carry a bumper with him to all his classes for a year to represent the silent problem of students being touched by cars they're blocking.
#68
Occupied Aztlan
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we'll see if the school meets any of the other demands
#69
Marxsplainer
Post rating: +
p sure the only ideologically correct line on this and other things like it is to embrace it and use it as a springboard for further organizing and education. when one finds oneself belittling people engaging in irl anti-racist action for not being communist enough is the moment every armchair marxist should pinch themself, go outside, and Join a Freaking Org, Lois
#70
Poronto
Post rating: +

ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


ilmdge posted:

going on a hunger strike because someone is racist is just helping the racist


#71
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I'm in favor of racists and not in favor of face book hunger strikers.
#72
[account deactivated]
#73
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I did not read all the links because I am too busy at the Org Factory writing the million dollar checks that make the communism happen, but judging a movement purely by the content of its most immediate demands is asinine.

RedMaistre posted:

Why are some specifically demanding the president resign rather than that he implement policy x, y, and z to address racism on campus though?

Or rather: What would they want a new president to do differently if Wolf was replaced?



Perhaps the new president could abolish tuition, level and standardize all wages, proclaim the campus an independent workers state, expropriate all nearby private property and convert the sports teams into armed red guards to who will defend the commune and export revolution to the surrounding territory?

When seeking institutional change, directing one's energy at the figurehead of that institution is not necessarily a bad tactic. Asking what that individual could 'do differently' is a method of distracting from the issue at hand by making it about the individual's own personal failure as opposed to the structural failure that they represent.

It would be just as easy to ask what a particular president, police chief or Prime Hitler could 'do differently' given that they are constrained by their class position whenever any popular movement seizes on them as a vector of attack.

#74
Marxsplainer
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postposting posted:

I did not read all the links because I am too busy at the Org Factory writing the million dollar checks that make the communism happen,



Same.

#75
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I read their PDF a little. Seems like demand 1 is essentially asking for Tim Wolfe to admit to things that would send him to jail. Pretty lol.

They say they want the University to meet the  "Legion of Black Collegians' demands 
that were presented in 1969 for the betterment of the black community"... I don't know what that is? But maybe its something awesome.

#76
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Cornell, 1969
#77
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I am not sure why making 'diagonal' demands to official x for concrete policy changes is more distractedly personal than baldly asking official x to step down.

If one really believes oneself to be oppressed by a "Prime Hitler", and you want a political solution to their existence, you don't go on hunger strikes or seek to change their awareness, you try to assassinate them. That the students have resorted to various tactics other than that in dealing with their administration clearly shows that they don't feel like they are dealing with a fascist dictatorship, or the equivalent thereof. They obviously think it matters what the president of MU does, and believe it is possible that the future president of MU can act differently than the present president. So even the campus conflagration under discussion shows the weakness of a crude structuralism. It is important to distinguish between authorities, and between the different fields of operations that they enable, and not cede ground to an irrationalist propaganda of the deed that thinks "revealing" the inequity of structures is the only possible end of politics.

However, I do admit that I was being too dismissive of all this. It will be interesting to see how it all develops now that Wolfe has indeed stepped down in direct response to the actions of students.

Edited by RedMaistre ()

#78
Post rating: +
The options are not 'do nothing' and 'support everything'. The radicalism of the BLM movement derives from the existing material conditions of 2015 America. that's gonna happen with or without a BLM movement. In fact, the BLM movement, which in structure is identical to this liberal garbage, is an attempt to coopt and channel this energy into liberal politics:

http://www.blackagendareport.com/movement_needs_to_say_what_it_wants?page=1

Movements are defined by their demands – a truth that appears to have been widely forgotten in the two generations since Black America experienced a mass movement. There are Revolutionary Demands, such as for the abolition of prisons, which cannot occur absent a thorough social transformation. There are genuine Reformist Demands, which can be achieved without an overthrow of the rulers, but restrains them, while enhancing the power of the people and materially improving their actual conditions. An example: a demand that the U.S. Justice Department bring the number of Blacks incarcerated on drug charges down to the level of white drug offenders in the federal system, within a given time period. And then there are “reforms” that amount to tinkering around the edges without effecting real change in the essential status quo. Such “concessions” may actually make the prevailing order more palatable, and give a false impression of progress and popular empowerment. Examples include more training for police, without altering the core police mission in the Mass Black Incarceration State.



Glen Ford forgets a new form of demands: reactionary demands in which a movement refuses to make demands at all. Since demands naturally rise form political struggle, the insistence on having a lack of demands in order to be as inclusive as possible is in reality a reaction against politics and the aspirations of the oppressed without access to the informal social capital that makes up these Occupy-lite political movements.

This movement, like the BLM movement, is not just liberal but reactionary because it is not the real movement but the movement as it is being presented to the media by those who can shape the narrative. There's been a form of ultra-movementism here recently as a reaction against the ultra-leftism that one sees among bourgeois first world leftists and social chauvanists. But supporting anything and everything, particularly if it tickles our racism funny bone in America (which is the only american discourse one can be proudly revolutionary and not be socially shamed), is equally absurd:

If we join forces to produce a common newspaper, this work will train and bring into the foreground, not only the most skillful propagandists, but the most capable organisers, the most talented political party leaders capable, at the right moment, of releasing the slogan for the decisive struggle and of taking the lead in that struggle.
...
We must go our own way, and we must steadfastly carry on our regular work, and the less our reliance on the unexpected, the less the chance of our being caught unawares by any “historic turns”.



https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/may/04.htm

#79
Post rating: ~
cman you suck at arguing and it's annoying me. you managed to miss every single point RedMaistre was making.
#80
Occupied Aztlan
Post rating: ~

This movement, like the BLM movement, is not just liberal but reactionary because it is not the real movement but the movement as it is being presented to the media by those who can shape the narrative.



you mean the wholly undue focus on the shit swastika and resulting hunger strike on this forum and media at large? the choice to ignore both lists of demands made by different organizations? the odd claim that someone, anyone here is saying we should support anything that is presented to us and that we're 'movementists'?

you should read less JMP, hes rotting your brain