#1
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#2
Kurdt
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when i cared about labor issues i agreed with you. i still agree with you but i find it increasingly difficult to care about labor issues anymore, primarily because it seems like a symptom of the much deeper problem that can't be meaningfully countered through organized labor.
#3
Kurdt
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what is your experience from your current perspective?
#4
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#6
tardy on these heaters
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they're bad in arizona, they're bad in palestine, they're bad in north korea and china, and they were bad in the eastern bloc too. they're bad
#7
jiggago
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the only borders i support are those necessary to create an independent Aztlán
#8
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#9
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#10
Kurdt
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like, is it really worth strategizing about national borders and placing an emphasis on political engagement to support/strengthen them as a sort of rear-guard holding action to slow down the capital onslaught? or is it that this sort of organizing is useful in its own right as a class consciousness-raising device that has some potential for building meaningful something somehting? and what would j. sakai think about all this? just brainstorming here
#11
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huh? of course labour has the right to go anywhere it wants under universal protections.
#12
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borders suck, get rid of em. i dont see how otherwise is a defensible position. oh no! my white settler kkkountry might get over-run by furrners!!! fuck this!!
#13
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like, you cant examine borders in isolation from questions of state building and so on too, you're looking at this.... undialectically
#14
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im pretty sure the stupid first world idiot position is precisely "build the border wall"
#15
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gyrofry posted:

like, is it really worth strategizing about national borders and placing an emphasis on political engagement to support/strengthen them as a sort of rear-guard holding action to slow down the capital onslaught? or is it that this sort of organizing is useful in its own right as a class consciousness-raising device that has some potential for building meaningful something somehting? and what would j. sakai think about all this? just brainstorming here



j sakai would probably argue you are a genocidal kkkracker for supporting borders

#16
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#17
Kurdt
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jools posted:

gyrofry posted:

like, is it really worth strategizing about national borders and placing an emphasis on political engagement to support/strengthen them as a sort of rear-guard holding action to slow down the capital onslaught? or is it that this sort of organizing is useful in its own right as a class consciousness-raising device that has some potential for building meaningful something somehting? and what would j. sakai think about all this? just brainstorming here

j sakai would probably argue you are a genocidal kkkracker for supporting borders

that was my point my guy

#18
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discipline posted:

when people talk about borders going down it is almost 100% of the time in service of a ubiquitous global financial system



who gives a fuck, we're not "people", we're marxists who aren't children and are able to define our terms

#19
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discipline posted:

jools posted:

borders suck, get rid of em. i dont see how otherwise is a defensible position. oh no! my white settler kkkountry might get over-run by furrners!!! fuck this!!

I'm saying that the focus on this question in the academy isn't about giving the native americans their land back but more about flows of money



no you didn't you said that borders are somehow a barrier to global imperial rule lmfao

#20
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#21
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yeah and my point with regard to state building is that borders are a red herring; the issue is having strong democratically controlled centralised states in poor regions of the world, rather than hollowed out NGO-ridden hellholes. countries like the US or EU should just get rid of their borders entirely.
#22
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#23
tardy on these heaters
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didn't you defend the east german state for shooting people in the back as they tried to leave on the basis that the state provided healthcare or something? do you still feel this way
#24
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#25
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imo the back-shooting is not defensible in those terms; it is defensible in that those fleeing are often effectively thieving education and so on from the working class. i mean i'd not shoot them personally but that's a much better justification than The GDR Was Nice
#26
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discipline posted:

jools posted:

who gives a fuck, we're not "people", we're marxists who aren't children and are able to define our terms

sorry I forgot this was a graduate seminar with posting crew flags



well you were talking about the discussion around borders in the academy, a place i haven't visited for several years, and now you throw this graduate seminar shit at me?

#27
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also i am assuming babyfinland that you're strawmanning khamsek to a Ridiculous Degree
#28
tardy on these heaters
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jools posted:

imo the back-shooting is not defensible in those terms; it is defensible in that those fleeing are often effectively thieving education and so on from the working class. i mean i'd not shoot them personally but that's a much better justification than The GDR Was Nice



well that's still insane but i don't really care about the debate, just curious if that's why she's asking this question

#29
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babyfinland posted:

jools posted:

imo the back-shooting is not defensible in those terms; it is defensible in that those fleeing are often effectively thieving education and so on from the working class. i mean i'd not shoot them personally but that's a much better justification than The GDR Was Nice

well that's still insane but i don't really care about the debate, just curious if that's why she's asking this question



why is that insane? were i a doctor i'd much rather be chained to this country by the threat of being shot or declared a traitor if i left than hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt

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#32
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discipline posted:

jools posted:

well you were talking about the discussion around borders in the academy, a place i haven't visited for several years, and now you throw this graduate seminar shit at me?

I mean the defining my terms bit sorry if I offended



its cool, im just amped up because of the nazi rassenideologie itf

#33
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#34
UNUSUALY COOL
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who was it here who said that immigrants are scabs
#35
Kurdt
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discipline posted:

gyrofry posted:

what is your experience from your current perspective?

tbh I think the line that my union takes is "we'd rather have it closed than be non-union". labor unions here especially are anti-globalization, and while their purpose is to protect "american jobs" at least here they would like to see every single non union shop shuttered locally first

ya, thats why i jumped to the labor angle right away. i understand the line of reasoning, but i just find it increasingly difficult to believe that organized labor in the US is having or can actually have an appreciable effect on impeding globalization.

#36
UNUSUALY COOL
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i think everyone can agree that family-based visas should be expanded drastically because that shit is inhuman
#37
Kurdt
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daddyholes posted:

who was it here who said that immigrants are scabs

i'm certain it was me and IWC but i can't remember who got to it first.

#38
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#39
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OP if we close our borders now how do we prevent racist nationalist trash from taking advantage of this
#40
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