The Israeli\Palestinian conflict is especially interesting in this regard because the basic historical facts are also in dispute, though even when in agreement of the historical chronology the interpretations seem to be vastly different, even where there is agreement that a certain events happened but the motivations of the actors in said events are always disputed and are often considered to be more important than the events themselves. As it were, Pro-Israeli history books read as if they originated in a different timeline, altered in many a significant way than the one from which their more Pro-Palestinian (and dare I say, more objective) counterparts have originated. It is easy to attribute simple formal causes to the differences in narrative, most importantly the aggressive zionist PR machine, but when it comes down to it the Israeli and Palestinian publics have conflicting views of historical reality and when broken down to a per-individual level these views and observations seem each valid and reasonable within that individuals' perceived historical framework. Whether a person has been indoctrinated with lies or not is not pertinent, the existence of millions of likeminded individuals is enough to give this illusory reality sufficient corporeality.
People always view hasbara as a ridiculous attempt by Israelis to score cheap PR points, true enough, but isn't it more meaningful that certain individuals believe so strongly in Hasbareality that they feel a sense of personal duty to promote it aggressively in whichever venue is available?
Hasbareality seems to be one of the most effective systems of propaganda that have ever existed, capitalizing heavily on the unique history of the european jewish diaspora with its fiery culmination in frozen poland and just as importantly on the long stand traditions of jewish folklore and religion which are significant not only to jews, we can expect Israel to continue operating as if it exists in hasbara universe as long as Israelis believe in it.
To me this raises a variety of interesting questions, can Israeli apartheid be combated effectively in the same manner as South African apartheid was? Is Israel likely to give-in given sufficient external pressures or is it likely to attempt to follow the north korean model? what will it require to change israeli mindset, is it even necessary to do so in order to achieve a -'peaceful solution- (or is it impossible and an obstacle to one)?
babyfinland posted:
i dont see any reason that justifies your claim that israeli propaganda is especially effective, it pales in comparison to like maoist, soviet, american, or nazi propaganda etc
perhaps not externally, but who could possibly argue the effectiveness of israeli propaganda on its own jewish citizenry? i think that's what EJK was trying to say with that line.
germanjoey posted:babyfinland posted:
i dont see any reason that justifies your claim that israeli propaganda is especially effective, it pales in comparison to like maoist, soviet, american, or nazi propaganda etcperhaps not externally, but who could possibly argue the effectiveness of israeli propaganda on its own jewish citizenry? i think that's what EJK was trying to say with that line.
well he makes that claim in order to argue that israeli propaganda is especially effective and unique in this regard such that it demands the development of new strategies. i dont really see the uniqueness of the circumstances in that regard, so i dont think the question of new strategies is relevant
babyfinland posted:
anyway no i dont think its necesary to convince israelis of anything in order to acheive a just peace
how is it not necessary? you could argue that it is not necessary for israeli consent for what you consider a just solution to the I/P conflict, but as long as the jews of israel (and abroad) have grips on considerable power, an solution enforced against their assent will not result in any kind of "peace."
tpaine posted:babyfinland posted:
the mutual interests of the US and israel are not intrinsic to israel's existence, and have recently become more and more stressed. note that israelis dont have to be convinced of anything here. if the US and israel part ways, and i think they will eventually, this will be the first step in an inevitable isolation of israel (inevitable because of the way it must sustain itself as an alien, exploitative entity in the world) and thus eventually it will come to the decisive moment when either it dies or it gives up the ghost and intergratessamson option
dont do it bibi
babyfinland posted:germanjoey posted:babyfinland posted:
i dont see any reason that justifies your claim that israeli propaganda is especially effective, it pales in comparison to like maoist, soviet, american, or nazi propaganda etcperhaps not externally, but who could possibly argue the effectiveness of israeli propaganda on its own jewish citizenry? i think that's what EJK was trying to say with that line.
well he makes that claim in order to argue that israeli propaganda is especially effective and unique in this regard such that it demands the development of new strategies. i dont really see the uniqueness of the circumstances in that regard, so i dont think the question of new strategies is relevant
well, i do think it is unique, in that every form of effective propaganda must be unique for its target audience. modern american propaganda is as different from american ww2-era propaganda as it is from modern north korean propaganda. likewise, israeli propaganda is unique to israel. (and come on here, do we need to see israeli listed in a youtube video titled TOP TEN MOST BADASS PROPAGANDAS OF ALL TIME for us to agree that israeli society is heavily saturated in self-sycophant media?)
and so what is the flavor of israeli propaganda? well, i couldn't tell you truthfully, because i've only seen the worst of it. (when i get linked youtubes and articles and JIDF comments, etc). however, some themes i've noticed, just from the top of my head:
- maternal symbolism, both in the sense of "i'm should have done what mother said was right" and "im proud of myself because mother is proud of me." "mother" in this case usually being, but not necessarily, the nation of israel itself. you see this thread at the surface in like the obvious places but also in stuff like where that girl was on a shrink's couch, etc. north korean propaganda is famous for being seeped in maternal symbolism, but it is quite different here.
- youth symbolism, depicting a strong young nation perhaps not sure what to do but trying its best to do what is right. (you see this thread running especially through those videos that are like I USED TO THINK PALESTINE WAS COOL BUT THEN I FOUND OUT THAT GAZA MURDERS GAY BABIES TURNS OUT ISRAEL IS BEST AFTER ALL."
- victim symbolism, well, this one goes without saying
- ethnic-fetishism symbolism, which is about depicting israeli culture as having a deep, historically established sediment.
babyfinland posted:
the mutual interests of the US and israel are not intrinsic to israel's existence, and have recently become more and more stressed. note that israelis dont have to be convinced of anything here. if the US and israel part ways, and i think they will eventually, this will be the first step in an inevitable isolation of israel (inevitable because of the way it must sustain itself as an alien, exploitative entity in the world) and thus eventually it will come to the decisive moment when either it dies or it gives up the ghost and intergrates
what makes you say that they'll part ways anytime soon? are you high? just a few weeks ago, Obama delivered, in front of the UN, what was, according to Avigdor Lieberman, "the most pro-Israel speech ever given by a sitting American president." Obama, the guy whose stated goal is to raise a billion farkin dollars for the 2012 presidential election. where do you think this money is gonna come from. and that's only at the surface level; how cozy do you think the american and israeli intelligence services are with each other at this point?
nothing short of a revolution is gonna pry apart American and Israeli policy in the next 20 years.
babyfinland posted:
but his point was that the propaganda is so strong that it impedes the usual strategies, but i dont see that as being a justified claim
hmmm, what "usual strategies" *do* you consider effective in the face of strong propaganda.
other than to nuke major population centers, i mean.
tpaine posted:
anyone remember when the israeli government had that propaganda program urging israelis to report jews living abroad who had intermingled with non jews
ahaha post it
germanjoey posted:babyfinland posted:
but his point was that the propaganda is so strong that it impedes the usual strategies, but i dont see that as being a justified claimhmmm, what "usual strategies" *do* you consider effective in the face of strong propaganda.
other than to nuke major population centers, i mean.
i donno what problems the propaganda is causing that need to be countered is all. israelis are doign whats good for them.