guidoanselmi posted:dm posted:i did CBT in a really bad context once and it was kinda traumatizing. i've had an understandable aversion to it ever since
how old were you at the time? what were your grievances?
The engineer in me (and yes i'm wholly cognisant of how bad this sound) makes the CBT process sound logical and effective. Obviously I'm interpreting this outside of the realm of mental health...
it was at the place i went to and it was like "oh you have a problem with what's going on? stop thinking about it!" part of the "brainwashing" was forcing you to rationalize an extremely fucked up system of social conduct being imposed (the engineer in you should check out operant conditioning). i know people are trying to help when they suggest it, but to me it sounds like i'm being told to "get over it" with problems with my family, especially if that's who is paying for it.
i wish i could put it in systems theory terms for you, but think about the "warehousing" in the OP in terms of negative feedback. if the current system was accomplishing its stated goals, then the number of people in treatment would be dropping over time.
what is to be done? that's a question that my own experience has forced me to think a lot about and hopefully i'll get to play some role in working on that now.
i think Scheff has a good perspective in that book i quoted:
guidoanselmi posted:I've never really understood the role of forums drama and emotional baggage people seem to carry here. I don't concern myself with the judgement of people here (nor do I expend the effort to judge except on the merits of any individual post) but I also don't use this as a surrogate of real life socialization.
I don't know how you, dm, and others view the forum but I'm earnestly curious about what role it plays in your life/lives?
i'll write up something more on this later as a contrast to certain views expressed here, but here are some thoughts off the top of my head:
i think it can be easy to fetishize The Internet. i would never say that it's a substitute, but i think it can be a legitimate supplement. some people are vulnerable for reasons beyond their control and looking down on them for not sucking it up and conforming to social norms and expectations that they are not capable of meeting is kinda like victim blaming imo.
for me, LF was more or less a dissociative defense mechanism, now it's strangers who can't let me down which is still a very real threat irl at the moment. i'm not looking for prestige or a substitute for a normal social life or something, it's making sure that what i'm saying sounds coherent before i bring it up with people who really can hurt me and have done so many times in the past.
it might seem really odd, but talking about this stuff makes my closest friends and family really uncomfortable because i'm violating some of the most rigid social norms there are (those related to the family) simply by trying to have my own needs met. it's axiomatic that your friends and family will support you when you're going through difficult shit, but i don't have that.
there's also just being concerned about and trying to provide what little help you can to other people just because they're human. one really important thing there is the validation that comes from knowing that you're not alone.
a personal anecdote:
when i was younger, i played team fortress classic (IRC rather than forums) with a guy who was going through some shit and ended up attempting suicide. he took all sorts of pills that were contraindicated. i just happened to be available to talk and ended up talking with him over the phone all night until i talked him into giving the phone to his ex-girlfriend (that i didn't know) so i could explain to her what was going on since he was too ashamed. she got him to the hospital and his stomach was pumped and he survived. his family (who he couldn't count on) wanted to send me a thank you gift and everything. so what if it was someone from The Internet that was there?
there's something pretty common irl when people are growing up where you have someone taking on the role of a "surrogate parent"/mentor to help you with stuff your parents/guardians won't. this has been especially true for me since i don't have siblings. this has been a mostly irl thing, but when i was like 14, a woman in her 30's (also played team fortress classic) used to do that for me and help me get perspective on problems i was dealing with.
i ended up meeting her in person a couple of times when i visited LA. the first time i was like 16 and my parents thought she was like a creepy child molester or something as a kind of defense against dealing with their own shortcomings. the second time was after i was 18 along with the irl friend that got me into playing team fortress classic just for fun.
would it be Weird if i contacted her to catch up and tell her that i'm going to be alright since she knew what was going on better than everyone irl? i don't think so.
so yeah it's been a coping mechanism for me in the past and some people can and do think that's weird and pathetic or whatever, but i don't really give a shit. the idea that it might not have been healthy presumes that there were healthy (more consistent with social norms) alternatives. i'm sure just about everyone here has had someone in their lives that has gone through some problems that you don't really understand and you can't do anything for them, possibly precisely because of the relation you have to them. they still need emotional support/social support and if you think seeking it out from the internet is unhealthy, you should try to do more for them. if not, just try and treat them like a human being by showing them dignity and respect.
none of this is to say that i do not prefer and desire more real life socialization that i'm finally going to be able to get on my own terms rather than the ones that have been degrading and humiliating for me.
e: to really bring home the point about norms and operant conditioning, here is some program material to bring in line with what i've said about my past:
e2:
more reading that is going to be going into my advocacy work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Herbert_Mead#Social_philosophy_.28behaviorism.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erving_Goffman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Turner
Edited by dm ()
cleanhands posted:i hope you return someday, with a new username and posting style, and can enjoy the magic of posting without the cold hand of history dragging your arm
i'd rather come back with a positive story to tell, but i've got a lot to do to make that happen
O_O
*slowly backs away before doing an about face and breaking into an all-out sprint*
THE IRONING IS DELICIOUS....
Edited by jools ()
guidoanselmi posted:I've never really understood the role of forums drama and emotional baggage people seem to carry here. I don't concern myself with the judgement of people here (nor do I expend the effort to judge except on the merits of any individual post) but I also don't use this as a surrogate of real life socialization.
I don't know how you, dm, and others view the forum but I'm earnestly curious about what role it plays in your life/lives?
i post dumb words here when i have nothing better to do
Keven posted:The engineer in me thinks that if Obama is re-elected, gas prices will reach 8 dollars a gallon, but if mit romney is elected, gas prices will go back to 2.25 a gallon. I'm not approaching this as a mental health professional but rather, a person who is entirely convinced that I'm the smartest man on the planet but never figured out how pants actually work. So I admit that I could be wrong here. Hahaha just kidding, no I don't.
same/not same
Keven posted:The engineer in me thinks that if Obama is re-elected, gas prices will reach 8 dollars a gallon, but if mit romney is elected, gas prices will go back to 2.25 a gallon. I'm not approaching this as a mental health professional but rather, a person who is entirely convinced that I'm the smartest man on the planet but never figured out how pants actually work. So I admit that I could be wrong here. Hahaha just kidding, no I don't.
Flappo posted:they should probably lock dm up again
i'm still not sure how to leave 
dm posted:e: to really bring home the point about norms and operant conditioning, here is some program material to bring in line with what i've said about my past:
i'm not following the context - like material from the psychological program you were subjected to or background in general. i mean some things i can follow well enough but there's some seemingly odious generalizations in there, too?
Keven posted:The engineer in me thinks that if Obama is re-elected, gas prices will reach 8 dollars a gallon, but if mit romney is elected, gas prices will go back to 2.25 a gallon. I'm not approaching this as a mental health professional but rather, a person who is entirely convinced that I'm the smartest man on the planet but never figured out how pants actually work. So I admit that I could be wrong here. Hahaha just kidding, no I don't.
yup. u found me out, keven. 
deadken posted:i post dumb words here when i have nothing better to do
this until the perfect IWC troll comes up.
just to clarify some stuff on the benzos, klonopin has an insanely long half-life and i've been taking it at regularly scheduled times every day rather than just when i was feeling anxious, so it hasn't really been addiction in the technical sense because i was at that dosage for a long time and didn't develop a tolerance for it (which is actually really weird). it's going to take months to slowly get off of it completely
i know quite a bit about meds from first hand experience because i've been put on all sorts of them since i was a teenager as if they could solve everything on their own: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." i know a little bit of pharmacology because that's just been part of my life. again, lay the fuck off on the stigmatization, please.
i'm not saying this to put myself above/stigmatize people who have struggled with substance abuse problems, people who have been helped by psychiatric meds in conjunction with serious therapy, or people who engage in recreational drug use (i like weed, but haven't been able to smoke for years because of the meds). i understand that i probably came across wrong in a number of ways that are hard to predict, but unwarranted feelings of shame/persecution that other people have about discussing those things are not something i can reasonably expected to take responsibility for/fully anticipate.
my situation really is just a bit different and i don't have a good frame of reference to provide anyone with. my complaint isn't that the stuff i've struggled with is somehow unique and incomparable (indeed, i've explicitly denied this). the issue is that it's not a socially recognized problem.
if there's a whole point with the straight white male thing, it's been the paradox of being granted institutional power by social norms that i don't recognize as legitimate and have no desire to enforce on purpose. if i'm right about anything there, it's just that there is a paradox. i'm not attempting to undermine the claims of any marginalized groups.
what if i did suddenly become attracted to other guys? the meaning of my experience to others would be changed entirely retroactively. i want to apologize to a few other rhizzoners for some misunderstandings related to that b/c if it would probably be good for me in terms of social support and psychological health if i could pull it off, but it just doesn't work for me
i'm also not actually homophobic (i'd rather avoid tokenizing, so take my word for it), though i can understand why some stuff would have been interpreted that way: once bitten, twice shy. the kink stuff is a whole different issue that i seriously just cannot explain. i admit that i freaked out and apologized privately.
my Gender Issues have to do with the relationship between being conditioned not to show/express emotions and masculinity. rhizzone being HOMONORMATIVE and feminist is a good thing, though. that's not what i was asking for an apology about. what i was asking for an apology for doesn't matter now.
guidoanselmi posted:dm posted:e: to really bring home the point about norms and operant conditioning, here is some program material to bring in line with what i've said about my past:
i'm not following the context - like material from the psychological program you were subjected to or background in general. i mean some things i can follow well enough but there's some seemingly odious generalizations in there, too?
yeah, i didn't provide nearly enough context, but the generalizations are meant to be demeaning. try reading it as saying that i was biologically and psychologically constituted in such a way as to render me incapable of "experiencing care" appropriately.
the one about guilt being a "powerful manipulative tool" made MY PSYCHIATRIST cringe because the whole idea was to make me basically hate myself for their shortcomings. i got back in touch with that person i was talking about to help with my memory and this is pretty much exactly what i was looking for (and interestingly, not something i've heard from people far closer to me):
...I gather from the website you linked that the 'treatment center' was a less than positive, and likely a traumatic experience. From what I remember, when you got back, you said nothing (or very little) negative of the place. I remember being concerned, but more than anything wanted to be there to help if you needed it rather than push my own ideas onto you.
At the time I didn't quite understand, but now I'm guessing you were somewhat 'institutionalized' by the experience. That in order to get out with the hope of someday controlling your own life, you learned to say what you were supposed to say and go through the motions that were expected of you.
the website is this one. so yeah, that's for real. it's not something that i can just sort of turn off. it makes people really uncomfortable irl, hence what i said about feeling like my very existence is an inconvenience to people sometimes.
i didn't want to get put on 90mg of klonopin, but my brain just sort of couldn't handle all of the stress that created. being functionally disabled has not been fun or relaxing for me. i didn't give up my social life voluntarily or stop wanting a "normal" life at any point, it just wasn't working and i didn't understand why yet, so i blamed myself.
the good news is that in reading all sorts of shit, i was sort of unconsciously trying to come to terms with what happened. my breakthrough happened to come on the internet. not my first choice, but it's better than nothing and khamsek is going to just have to learn to dwi in terms of me being unwilling to forget it 
moving past that is a really good thing, imo! the idea of coming back under a different name doesn't sit with me very well because it's basically like saying that you want me to continue having problems with this.
e:
dm posted:again, lay the fuck off on the stigmatization, please.
actually this is what i was legitimately angry about:
They reported that though the staff seemed to be well-meaning, they generally objectified and dehumanized the patients, often discussing patients at length in their presence as though they were not there, and avoiding direct interaction with patients except as strictly necessary to perform official duties.
Edited by dm ()
thx
it's a lot easier to think of me as just temporarily acting a little weird because of benzo withdrawal
dm posted:my situation really is just a bit different and i don't have a good frame of reference to provide anyone with. my complaint isn't that the stuff i've struggled with is somehow unique and incomparable (indeed, i've explicitly denied this). the issue is that it's not a socially recognized problem.
i have always thought of "awareness campaigns" as really bourgeois and useless, and of course many of them are. but your experiences really demonstrate that awareness can have its place, not just as a prelude to action but as a tangible benefit in itself
Edited by dm ()
dm posted:thanks t-paine, that's very helpful. my personal and internet lives have been separated again too
You can't separate them. Your Internet self is your true heart.
pangobear posted:hey there dm, i dont really know what youre talking about and im not asking you to elaborate but i just wanted to say that i really admire you and wish you all the best!
thanks! it's no big deal really, though it was just really disorienting for a little bit!
Skylark posted:*pastes something so huge it takes two rhizzone posts to complete, then captions with a small link to Liminality, the stupidest nonsense word academia has ever conceived*
yeah, that was the point!
....I need to focus on myself for a while. I have a lot of issues, but I'm at least going to do the best I can to be honest with myself about them now that I'm sure that they can't be medicated away. This doesn't mean that I feel any differently about you, it's BECAUSE of how I feel about you. I would hate to see you with myself right now.
nothing left to say
EmanuelaOrlandi posted:dm ignore the haters. they can't handle someone who is actually trying to understand the problems they face instead of making them up.
i appreciate it, but i seriously don't have my shit together enough yet. fortunately she is very responsible and protective of me and has pointed me in the right direction in terms of some reading, so i'm going to be working on that. tbh, i think it would be a good thing for me personally in terms of self-improvement and learning to be more responsible. i wouldn't mind getting to know some folks in the local community as well
the rest is nobody's business because ensuring privacy is one of those responsibilities and i fucked up on that one already and have a lot of work to do in terms of proving that i can be trusted.
aerdil posted:personally i prefer the method of just savagely suppressing them until you've created a singularity of hate and despair that occasionally flings shit at the ones closest to you like hawking radiation
i'm sorry