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jettojagga
jettojagga
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~woot~ thanks for the link I'll catch up
jettojagga
jettojagga
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and hopefully have something to say irt
antisemitism, race and immigrant tension, relationship between citizen and state, imperialism at home and abroad, gentrification, etc.
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germanjoey
germanjoey
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This is really awesome, thanks for posting it!
I'm personally a big fan of a lot of Moore's stuff but I have not read From Hell itself... I would love to do a read along!
On your comments about Misogyny in From Hell, I'm reminded of Dave Sim, of Cerebus fame. Apparently the two were good pals. Have you ever read Moore's coorespondance (4 parts, first is here http://homepages.tesco.net/~kettlecup/amms/Correspondence1.htm) with him around the time when From Hell was coming out?
I've always thought it was odd that Sim is vilified beyond reckoning for his bizarre views on feminism/women (and to be fair, he is a pretty crazy dude and would rant at length in his comic's "letters" pages) and yet no one ever sez anything about Moore when he makes stuff like a Jack the Ripper comic and the "0__0"-ifying Lost Girls.
I'm also really interested to see what Moore sez about Marx... he's been known for his libertarian streak at least as far back as V for Vendetta, but I've never really bought that he was in the same line as his die-hard Paultard fans due to his seeming rejection of their naive conceptions of Nietzche in The Watchmen. (which was all about Ubermenschen and Master/Slave Morality)
I'm personally a big fan of a lot of Moore's stuff but I have not read From Hell itself... I would love to do a read along!
On your comments about Misogyny in From Hell, I'm reminded of Dave Sim, of Cerebus fame. Apparently the two were good pals. Have you ever read Moore's coorespondance (4 parts, first is here http://homepages.tesco.net/~kettlecup/amms/Correspondence1.htm) with him around the time when From Hell was coming out?
I've always thought it was odd that Sim is vilified beyond reckoning for his bizarre views on feminism/women (and to be fair, he is a pretty crazy dude and would rant at length in his comic's "letters" pages) and yet no one ever sez anything about Moore when he makes stuff like a Jack the Ripper comic and the "0__0"-ifying Lost Girls.
I'm also really interested to see what Moore sez about Marx... he's been known for his libertarian streak at least as far back as V for Vendetta, but I've never really bought that he was in the same line as his die-hard Paultard fans due to his seeming rejection of their naive conceptions of Nietzche in The Watchmen. (which was all about Ubermenschen and Master/Slave Morality)
babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
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I'll read this after I finish Debt By Dabid Groubar
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babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
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no because theyre reading Doubt by Daylin Groebeur
jettojagga
jettojagga
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I just started, I'm @ the start of chapter 2. Riveting!
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getfiscal
getfiscal
Mike Nelson here.
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yeah i'm going to read a comic book. then maybe play nintendo and study for my addition test tomorrow in grade school. grow up, discipline.
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jettojagga
jettojagga
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OK, I'm gonna be a lame-o and just go through some categories as I saw them:
(I'm starting on chapter 3 right now)
Anti-semitism - Annie says in the shop, "I wouldn't want to jew you now, would I?"
It's a little thing, but Moore puts it front and center. It's pretty much the first thing Annie says, and it's very offhand. Her frank speech may be a marker of her class, and her uncouthness (she is Catholic, after all!). So far we haven't seen any Jewish characters (that I know!), only the attitudes towards them. For the more educated man, there's the spiel that William goes through to join the Masons, which references "the Juwes" and also the dead religions.
Immigrant tension - Again, Annie spells it out early on, as an Irish Catholic she knows of her majesty as "the Famine Queen." Annie's "trouble" is made more urgent by her Catholicism, which spurs the Queen to terrible action.
Class in general - William and his driver, John Netley, dance the dance of the English class system. John fawns over William, William rebukes the overly "respectful" attention and insults him, John pretends not to have noticed the harsh words. The poor make up an experimental class for William, especially poor women.
Any societal problems are to be solved by men voting for representatives. Lees the middle class socialist calls himself a fraud, though he's talking about his supposed supernatural powers. Abberline is a bootstraps Tory.
From what I've seen so far, misogyny is indeed the main thematic thread running though the story. The first woman we meet is a whore, the next woman is later labeled a whore for her pregnancy, and William treats his female "patients" (victims?) with less respect than his male cadavers. I'm thinking especially of the panel where he has his fingers in the syphilitic mad woman, and Annie's operation - which reminded me of the Rosemary Kennedy fiasco. Class and gender mix in the scene where William steals a heart from a male cadaver, and laments to the woman witness that she just doesn't understand science or his professional needs. This woman is invisible/ignorable because of her station and her gender - and really, she wouldn't think of going against this doctor's wishes.
According to wikipedia, the historical William Gull was a proponent of women doctors. I'm not too far in and the murders haven't even started yet, but this thing is dense!
(I'm starting on chapter 3 right now)
Anti-semitism - Annie says in the shop, "I wouldn't want to jew you now, would I?"
It's a little thing, but Moore puts it front and center. It's pretty much the first thing Annie says, and it's very offhand. Her frank speech may be a marker of her class, and her uncouthness (she is Catholic, after all!). So far we haven't seen any Jewish characters (that I know!), only the attitudes towards them. For the more educated man, there's the spiel that William goes through to join the Masons, which references "the Juwes" and also the dead religions.
Immigrant tension - Again, Annie spells it out early on, as an Irish Catholic she knows of her majesty as "the Famine Queen." Annie's "trouble" is made more urgent by her Catholicism, which spurs the Queen to terrible action.
Class in general - William and his driver, John Netley, dance the dance of the English class system. John fawns over William, William rebukes the overly "respectful" attention and insults him, John pretends not to have noticed the harsh words. The poor make up an experimental class for William, especially poor women.
Any societal problems are to be solved by men voting for representatives. Lees the middle class socialist calls himself a fraud, though he's talking about his supposed supernatural powers. Abberline is a bootstraps Tory.
From what I've seen so far, misogyny is indeed the main thematic thread running though the story. The first woman we meet is a whore, the next woman is later labeled a whore for her pregnancy, and William treats his female "patients" (victims?) with less respect than his male cadavers. I'm thinking especially of the panel where he has his fingers in the syphilitic mad woman, and Annie's operation - which reminded me of the Rosemary Kennedy fiasco. Class and gender mix in the scene where William steals a heart from a male cadaver, and laments to the woman witness that she just doesn't understand science or his professional needs. This woman is invisible/ignorable because of her station and her gender - and really, she wouldn't think of going against this doctor's wishes.
According to wikipedia, the historical William Gull was a proponent of women doctors. I'm not too far in and the murders haven't even started yet, but this thing is dense!
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germanjoey
germanjoey
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bump because i'm gonna read this now
jettojagga
jettojagga
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I swear to god I'm still reading it//
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jettojagga
jettojagga
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I'm about 1/5 of the way through and right now the big thing is the architectural conspiracy theories. Moore is pretty clearly using his pov/status as the writer to keep us off balance irt them. We (probably) have no grounding for them which makes them both impenetrable and "believable" (in context w/the story at least).
We don't know what of Moore's writing is "accurate" in this regard and what is being deliberately tweaked for the story. The atmosphere of London is an oppressive one rife with whiffs of paganism and conspiracy. Again, Jack the Ripper is not some unexpected monster puncturing this idyll, he is just one more symptom of a sick society that is eating itself.
We don't know what of Moore's writing is "accurate" in this regard and what is being deliberately tweaked for the story. The atmosphere of London is an oppressive one rife with whiffs of paganism and conspiracy. Again, Jack the Ripper is not some unexpected monster puncturing this idyll, he is just one more symptom of a sick society that is eating itself.
germanjoey
germanjoey
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i just finished .... jesus, it was incredible, I can't believe I haven't read this until now. that scene where he sees the skyscraper after he rips fake marie gave me fuckin' chills... good golly... I'll have to reply in more detail...
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khamsek
khamsek
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:)
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germanjoey
germanjoey
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discipline posted:
hhaha I was so full of smiles last night it seems...
hahahaha
mistersix
mistersix
desire be, desire go
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this really is an incredible book and i will post more in this thread after i reread it via the convenient pdf link, as i loaned out my copy a couple of years ago and still dont have it back
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animedad
animedad
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i randomly went inside a graphic novel bookstore today and randomly happened upon this and vaguely remembered this thread and bought From Hell. holy shit, it owns, thank you!
internationalist
internationalist
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I wonder why the part where those doors open and an ocean of blood spills out like that scene with the elevator doors in The Shining and drowns all of those Jews as a metaphor for the birth of Hitler wasn't shown in the movie.
Maybe it's in the deleted scenes.
Maybe it's in the deleted scenes.
jools
jools
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bump cause i just read this and its really good. having lived in london all my life i can its accurate about the general atmosphere of this place, and about the stark creepy malevolent beauty of hawksmoors churches.
also im a huge sucker for anything thats some kind of rumination on grand historical narratives, so thats cool. i guess things get pretty spoilery from here but then i dont "Care" about plot spoilers lol
i guess thats what stood out for me. there is a sense in this book of simultaneity, that the ritual completed by the ripper doesnt so much create the 20th century but reveal one possibility among many already existing. his visions arent so much views of things yet to come but a revelation of an alternative in that place - look at the way it talks about whitechapel being the home to huguenots then jews then south asians, but always remaining the home to immigrants. it begs us to see this violence against women as not something in the past, but an alternative expression of something that remains with us.
in regard to this, moore realy reallly really effectively creates a picture of historical time that lets us look at this history dialectically, a great whirling mechanism all happening at once, not some kind of placid river. architecture plays an important role in this too - hes careful to maintain constancy in settings to a great extent, with hawksmoor this looming presence.
theres maybe 5 or 6 times more than this to say about this particular aspect of from hell - like looking at this in respect to all the stuff gull says about eternal ideas
also im a huge sucker for anything thats some kind of rumination on grand historical narratives, so thats cool. i guess things get pretty spoilery from here but then i dont "Care" about plot spoilers lol
i guess thats what stood out for me. there is a sense in this book of simultaneity, that the ritual completed by the ripper doesnt so much create the 20th century but reveal one possibility among many already existing. his visions arent so much views of things yet to come but a revelation of an alternative in that place - look at the way it talks about whitechapel being the home to huguenots then jews then south asians, but always remaining the home to immigrants. it begs us to see this violence against women as not something in the past, but an alternative expression of something that remains with us.
in regard to this, moore realy reallly really effectively creates a picture of historical time that lets us look at this history dialectically, a great whirling mechanism all happening at once, not some kind of placid river. architecture plays an important role in this too - hes careful to maintain constancy in settings to a great extent, with hawksmoor this looming presence.
theres maybe 5 or 6 times more than this to say about this particular aspect of from hell - like looking at this in respect to all the stuff gull says about eternal ideas
Hitler
Hitler
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someone (in this thread 
) got me this thing for christmas, im gonna start readign it after i finish man in the HIGH castle
) got me this thing for christmas, im gonna start readign it after i finish man in the HIGH castle
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aerdil
aerdil
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discipline posted:also joey you are a real jerk for not posting anywhere
karphead
karphead
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bonclay
bonclay
Harry the Hat
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if you like his theory of four-dimensional time architecture biznasty then maybe you oughta read his first novel....its called "voice of the fire". its about the string of terrible related events that leads to the creation of a bad city which is called northhampton. it focuses around twelve characters, you get to know them through the storys they tell of themselves and their situation and also your own historical speculations. every one of the stories takes place in the northhampton vicinity at a different point in its timeline. as the march of history progresses the story becomes more and more infested with these holistic influences and the ghosts of the past stories begin to accumulate and overwhelm the story. both in literal form and in their barely tangible mythical presence. there is also a constant theme of the many uses of fire. burning effigies, burning helpless victims, 'criminals' and cute gay witch pals. celestial fire, prophetic fire. fire which can cook the bones of earth, melt them into puddles, let them be molded by blows and sharpened to a bloodletting point. the heaving inferno and choking smoke that builds a new industrial society. i dont have a lot of time to sit here and tell you about why you gotta read my favorite book, youre wasting your time if you arent doing it already 5minutes ago. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. read the fucking book. (11)
bonclay
bonclay
Harry the Hat
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if you get to end there is a really hilarious diss on b. clinton
Meursault
Meursault
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cool thread. From Hell is so good, the art is so sick